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I wish more people could have the experience of using Mac and Win11 on a daily basis for real work. I've been developing on Mac/Win11/Linux for 8 years. Win11 v

I wish more people could have the experience of using Mac and Win11 on a daily basis for real work. I've been developing on Mac/Win11/Linux for 8 years. Win11 vs Mac/Linux is night-vs-day. But you really can't get a sense of how awful windows is without spending serious work time on both Mac & Win. It's not an exaggeration. The simplest things, like remembering settings, switching displays, or setting up hardware, Windows is just garbage. There is such a cumulative cognitive load to using windows vs mac, that it is exhausting. And don't even get me started on developing in windows: the command line always has been and always will be shyte. WSL is a facade. TL;DR: without actually committing to using both OSes for a solid period, I don't think developers have a clue about how bad Windows is compared to MacOS.

waboremo 4y ago
There's also a substantial difference in quality when developing between Mac and Linux. Less than Windows, but it's still very noticeable and often most developers make this tradeoff not because of the OS, but what exists outside of that - higher quality hardware, better apple support, more GUI solutions, etc. It's quite unfortunate that I assume many developers within the Windows team can see what needs to be changed, but are given the cold shoulder unless their solution comes bundled with another surface for ads.
- ChancyChance 4y ago
  I didn't rant further, but Linux really is the best universal dev platform. I mean this in terms of examples, support, and tendency for developers to create tools, toolchains, and ecosystems from the commandline. This is because serious developers need CI/CD flows, and that is something that can only be done efficiently from the commandline, and the Mac POSIX system (with brew and macports) can emulate Linux almost sufficiently as a replacement, but not quite. There's a reason why everything in the backend ultimately lives on a Linux variant. It's just that powerful. Of course, if you're an iOS, Android, or Windows dev exclusively, my words mean nothing. :) There are plenty of CI/CD pipelines for those platforms, but they often tend toward ... Linux-like flows.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    You are saying that Linux is best for Web Developers and server management. But not necessarily anything else.
    - ChancyChance 4y ago
      Um, no. I'm not saying that at all. In your case: if all you know is web, then that is all you'll see. I've used *nix for: all things cloud, distributed computing, scientific computing, machine learning, any kind of research, embedded, automotive, aeronautical, (oddly not CNC), CAD, physics simulation, circuit simulation, CPU design, etc...
johanvts 4y ago
I quite enjoy using windows terminal + powershell + dotnet. I would probably use powershell even if I went back to Linux.
throwaway472745 4y ago
Depends on the person because I use both and prefer Windows 10 over MacOS. The Windows 10 taskbar with "never combine taskbar buttons" is a lot more productive for me, especially when using multiple monitors. I tried some apps that emulate this on MacOS, but there were always issues. This is why I'm still on Windows 10 and not 11. I also prefer the Windows Explorer view, where the left side are folders and the right side the contents of the folder.
- localghost3000 4y ago
  With respect, you're speaking to something thats kind of outside the point I was making. You are talking your preference which is pretty subjective.
wruza 4y ago
A contrary anecdote: I used mac for like 7 years, linux (and bsd) for around the same. Both full-commit, main system. And obviously windows, which was always somewhere in a background all this time. I settled on windows 10 and do not plan to move away from it. MSYS2 adds the linux part, because I don’t really care about kernel or fs, linux means gnu/coreutils to me. And if you like gaming, fresh or non-standard hardware or are oc/tuning enthusiast, linux is out of the game. (Don’t bother commenting on that anyone, I check linux wrt that biannually, last check was this winter, shortly after yet another “it just works this time” promise. I couldn’t even set up linear mode for my metal-paws precision mouse, or 125% scaling.) Mac is an off-the-shelf option, but it’s expensive and I get mediocre custom hardware for the same price as top pc. E.g. idk about now, but when my drive failed I had to either buy 2x-priced Apple(tm) ssd or a regular one and install a third-party fan controller. Without it it sounded like a vacuum cleaner. Something latest i7/i9, rtx, etc? Costs like half a premium car. I regularly laugh at my former mac-loving boss who e.g. searched for TB(?)-DP adapter for under $400 and walks with a bunch of cables because his macbook lacks usb ports. Windows 10 is rock solid on hw support and software in general, for a regular price. I can build a completely silent and cool pc out of best parts. I also know how to set it up so it annoys me less if at all. And few programmers’ things that it lacks are easy to supplement. MSYS provides GNU, Powertoys help with desktop/wm, Windows Terminal is also okay. Start menu and taskbar are tunable enough to stop noticing them. Even Explorer became okay recently. Don’t get me wrong, windows still sucks by default. But at least “yes, it can do that” and it doesn’t require money to change keyboard batteries, if you know that joke.
- ChancyChance 4y ago
  > But at least “yes, it can do that” That's a good point. Hardware failures are far more costly on a Mac that on a windows machine. I'm so far removed from that being an issue (because I'm old) that it is a privilege I forget I have. Duly noted. Cygwin/MSYS/Mingw are really sad reflections of their source material. Not to take a big crap on the millions of man hours the developers have put into them, but they are not drop in replacements which is what I need. And in multiple cases over the years, they always fail to reproduce what is expected. These tools end up requiring their own special care in scripting, which is what I need them to avoid.
AdeptusAquinas 4y ago
I'll do you one better, used Mac for two years, Windows for most of the rest, and a hell of a lot of Linux all throughout. Found the opposite regarding cognitive load with MacOS - it feels like a ten year old operating system full of weird quirks and I got annoyed with its almost-linux-but-not command line. Win11 with WSL2 is my preferred driver, both for hacking and development (primarily Rust/Go not Node so maybe that makes a difference). Its all subjective though.
- baq 4y ago
  You’re not alone. Windows + WSL gives you the sanity of Linux and driver support of Windows. Best of both worlds, though it takes some work to get there.
- ducknalddon 4y ago
  >Its all subjective though. Apart from adverts. From a users or consumers perspective advertising is almost always a bad idea because it is so manipulative. You were sitting down to play a game or get some work done and right away the OS is trying to distract you.
- ChancyChance 4y ago
  Not really subjective, as there are demonstrable instances where windows just falls over. One easy example: Bash/sh works the same on Linux and Mac. Nowhere on windows is that true: cygwin mangles paths in a demonstrable script-braking way. WSL is not windows. It is literally linux running on windows. Which is even more complicated than running a half-baked shell. You're basically using a different OS which is an admission that windows is so awful. Might as well run VNC on a Linux box. If you want to objectively compare WSL and macOS, you need to run Linux in a virtual machine on mac, that would be the correct comparison.
  - AdeptusAquinas 4y ago
    Bash does not work the same on Linux and Mac, as the version for Mac is the GPLv2 option which has a different, reduced syntax vs the common version in Linux (or WSL2 versions of linux), so a linux bash script may well fail when run on MacOS. Further more, the binary architectures are different so a linux ELF binary wont work on Mac either. Your WSL comparisons are incorrect as well: WSL Linux on Windows can not only access and run commands like find over the entire windows file system, but it can also run windows executables - these start in windows even though triggered from bash or whatever in Linux. And vice versa: Windows can run linux binaries which start in WSL (or dual use it like Docker for windows which uses a wsl backend). Furthermore, if that floats your boat, if you start a linux gui application (I occasionally do with browsers or certain recon tools) it runs fine in a window as part of the windows ui experience. So its not really like a linux vm on mac at all, not even considering the vastly better performance you get from WSL vs a VM.
surgical_fire 4y ago
> I wish more people could have the experience of using Mac and Win11 on a daily basis for real work. I've been developing on Mac/Win11/Linux for 8 years. Win11 vs Mac/Linux is night-vs-day I never used Win11. I actually prefer Win10 in comparison to Mac. Linux is much better than any of those anyway.

waboremo 4y ago

There's also a substantial difference in quality when developing between Mac and Linux. Less than Windows, but it's still very noticeable and often most developers make this tradeoff not because of the OS, but what exists outside of that - higher quality hardware, better apple support, more GUI solutions, etc. It's quite unfortunate that I assume many developers within the Windows team can see what needs to be changed, but are given the cold shoulder unless their solution comes bundled with another surface for ads.

ChancyChance 4y ago
I didn't rant further, but Linux really is the best universal dev platform. I mean this in terms of examples, support, and tendency for developers to create tools, toolchains, and ecosystems from the commandline. This is because serious developers need CI/CD flows, and that is something that can only be done efficiently from the commandline, and the Mac POSIX system (with brew and macports) can emulate Linux almost sufficiently as a replacement, but not quite. There's a reason why everything in the backend ultimately lives on a Linux variant. It's just that powerful. Of course, if you're an iOS, Android, or Windows dev exclusively, my words mean nothing. :) There are plenty of CI/CD pipelines for those platforms, but they often tend toward ... Linux-like flows.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  You are saying that Linux is best for Web Developers and server management. But not necessarily anything else.
  - ChancyChance 4y ago
    Um, no. I'm not saying that at all. In your case: if all you know is web, then that is all you'll see. I've used *nix for: all things cloud, distributed computing, scientific computing, machine learning, any kind of research, embedded, automotive, aeronautical, (oddly not CNC), CAD, physics simulation, circuit simulation, CPU design, etc...

johanvts 4y ago

I quite enjoy using windows terminal + powershell + dotnet. I would probably use powershell even if I went back to Linux.

throwaway472745 4y ago

Depends on the person because I use both and prefer Windows 10 over MacOS. The Windows 10 taskbar with "never combine taskbar buttons" is a lot more productive for me, especially when using multiple monitors. I tried some apps that emulate this on MacOS, but there were always issues. This is why I'm still on Windows 10 and not 11. I also prefer the Windows Explorer view, where the left side are folders and the right side the contents of the folder.

localghost3000 4y ago
With respect, you're speaking to something thats kind of outside the point I was making. You are talking your preference which is pretty subjective.

wruza 4y ago

A contrary anecdote: I used mac for like 7 years, linux (and bsd) for around the same. Both full-commit, main system. And obviously windows, which was always somewhere in a background all this time. I settled on windows 10 and do not plan to move away from it. MSYS2 adds the linux part, because I don’t really care about kernel or fs, linux means gnu/coreutils to me. And if you like gaming, fresh or non-standard hardware or are oc/tuning enthusiast, linux is out of the game. (Don’t bother commenting on that anyone, I check linux wrt that biannually, last check was this winter, shortly after yet another “it just works this time” promise. I couldn’t even set up linear mode for my metal-paws precision mouse, or 125% scaling.) Mac is an off-the-shelf option, but it’s expensive and I get mediocre custom hardware for the same price as top pc. E.g. idk about now, but when my drive failed I had to either buy 2x-priced Apple(tm) ssd or a regular one and install a third-party fan controller. Without it it sounded like a vacuum cleaner. Something latest i7/i9, rtx, etc? Costs like half a premium car. I regularly laugh at my former mac-loving boss who e.g. searched for TB(?)-DP adapter for under $400 and walks with a bunch of cables because his macbook lacks usb ports. Windows 10 is rock solid on hw support and software in general, for a regular price. I can build a completely silent and cool pc out of best parts. I also know how to set it up so it annoys me less if at all. And few programmers’ things that it lacks are easy to supplement. MSYS provides GNU, Powertoys help with desktop/wm, Windows Terminal is also okay. Start menu and taskbar are tunable enough to stop noticing them. Even Explorer became okay recently. Don’t get me wrong, windows still sucks by default. But at least “yes, it can do that” and it doesn’t require money to change keyboard batteries, if you know that joke.

ChancyChance 4y ago
> But at least “yes, it can do that” That's a good point. Hardware failures are far more costly on a Mac that on a windows machine. I'm so far removed from that being an issue (because I'm old) that it is a privilege I forget I have. Duly noted. Cygwin/MSYS/Mingw are really sad reflections of their source material. Not to take a big crap on the millions of man hours the developers have put into them, but they are not drop in replacements which is what I need. And in multiple cases over the years, they always fail to reproduce what is expected. These tools end up requiring their own special care in scripting, which is what I need them to avoid.

AdeptusAquinas 4y ago

I'll do you one better, used Mac for two years, Windows for most of the rest, and a hell of a lot of Linux all throughout. Found the opposite regarding cognitive load with MacOS - it feels like a ten year old operating system full of weird quirks and I got annoyed with its almost-linux-but-not command line. Win11 with WSL2 is my preferred driver, both for hacking and development (primarily Rust/Go not Node so maybe that makes a difference). Its all subjective though.

baq 4y ago
You’re not alone. Windows + WSL gives you the sanity of Linux and driver support of Windows. Best of both worlds, though it takes some work to get there.
ducknalddon 4y ago
>Its all subjective though. Apart from adverts. From a users or consumers perspective advertising is almost always a bad idea because it is so manipulative. You were sitting down to play a game or get some work done and right away the OS is trying to distract you.
ChancyChance 4y ago
Not really subjective, as there are demonstrable instances where windows just falls over. One easy example: Bash/sh works the same on Linux and Mac. Nowhere on windows is that true: cygwin mangles paths in a demonstrable script-braking way. WSL is not windows. It is literally linux running on windows. Which is even more complicated than running a half-baked shell. You're basically using a different OS which is an admission that windows is so awful. Might as well run VNC on a Linux box. If you want to objectively compare WSL and macOS, you need to run Linux in a virtual machine on mac, that would be the correct comparison.
- AdeptusAquinas 4y ago
  Bash does not work the same on Linux and Mac, as the version for Mac is the GPLv2 option which has a different, reduced syntax vs the common version in Linux (or WSL2 versions of linux), so a linux bash script may well fail when run on MacOS. Further more, the binary architectures are different so a linux ELF binary wont work on Mac either. Your WSL comparisons are incorrect as well: WSL Linux on Windows can not only access and run commands like find over the entire windows file system, but it can also run windows executables - these start in windows even though triggered from bash or whatever in Linux. And vice versa: Windows can run linux binaries which start in WSL (or dual use it like Docker for windows which uses a wsl backend). Furthermore, if that floats your boat, if you start a linux gui application (I occasionally do with browsers or certain recon tools) it runs fine in a window as part of the windows ui experience. So its not really like a linux vm on mac at all, not even considering the vastly better performance you get from WSL vs a VM.

surgical_fire 4y ago

> I wish more people could have the experience of using Mac and Win11 on a daily basis for real work. I've been developing on Mac/Win11/Linux for 8 years. Win11 vs Mac/Linux is night-vs-day I never used Win11. I actually prefer Win10 in comparison to Mac. Linux is much better than any of those anyway.