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All true. The real reason Toyota is interested in hydrogen is that it would maintain its current balance sheet. Hydrogen would allow Toyota to swap one messy,

All true. The real reason Toyota is interested in hydrogen is that it would maintain its current balance sheet. Hydrogen would allow Toyota to swap one messy, expensive, heavy power plant requiring lots of maintenance (ie fuel cell) for ICE technology. Whereas EV technology has almost no maintenance, a motor with one moving part and regenerative braking that means even the brakes last forever. The accountants at Toyota would definitely frown at that. All the other car companies did the same calculations and said 'NO'. Lets just say we'll do that and keep kicking the can down the road for as long as possible. Now, thanks to Tesla, the cat is out of the bag and the entire industry knows they'll need a new financial platform to survive in the future and no, hydrogen will not save their sorry butts.

nordsieck 4y ago
> Whereas EV technology has almost no maintenance, a motor with one moving part and regenerative braking that means even the brakes last forever. The accountants at Toyota would definitely frown at that. That doesn't seem right. Of all the major brands, Toyota (and Lexus) is the most reliable. They are the opposite of planned obsolescence - they work hard to make their cars last for a very long time. I suppose in the short term, that's a downside for them, but in the long term, their reputation for being extremely reliable pays off in multiple ways - more demand, higher residual value, etc. I have no idea why the Japanese auto makers chased hydrogen so hard, but there as to be some other reason. Otherwise we would have seen declining reliability in their gas lineup before now.
- somewhat_drunk 4y ago
  Agreed. I think Toyota embraced H2 not because they wanted to replace a complex ICE with a complex PEMFC, but because a) Japan has no oil or mineral reserves to speak of, and b) when they started down that path, battery tech was woefully inadequate. Now that we've seen that batteries can power passenger vehicles just fine, I think Toyota and the Japanese government are both stubbornly engaging in the sunk cost fallacy. But the writing's on the wall: H2 is dead tech for passenger vehicles.
  - _hypx 4y ago
    Wrong. All cars will eventually have to move to hydrogen. This is due to the unsustainability of battery cars. A lot of the anti-Japan rhetoric here is bordering on racism. They are actually planning ahead. Western carmakers are short-sighted and not thinking past the next few quarters.
    - somewhat_drunk 4y ago
      Why is it so easy to spot the right winger these days? Oh that's right, it's because you all parrot the same nonsense. The valuable materials in EV batteries don't get used up - they're still in the battery, and can be recycled. We haven't figured out the particulars, but there's no reason why it can't be done. In fact, the biggest issue that battery recyclers are facing right now is a lack of batteries to recycle. Stop swallowing propaganda wholesale. Start thinking for yourself.
      - _hypx 4y ago
        And what is hydrogen but fuel made from water? Far less raw materials than could ever be achieved with batteries. And you'll never have to mine it even once. Seriously, the battery people act exactly like climate change deniers. An entire argument based on denying or obfuscating the problem, and pretending nothing better could ever exist. Seriously, your whole post is projection.
        somewhat_drunk 4y ago
        >And what is hydrogen but fuel made from water? 98% of H2 is made from fossil fuels. You know why, right?
        _hypx 4y ago
        So is the vast majority of electricity. Take away hydropower and nuclear, and it's something like 85%. Use to be 99% at one point.
_hypx 4y ago
This is also total bullshit. A fuel cell car is also an EV. Toyota is pursuing because it is the simply the better idea. People who repeat this bullshit are just brainwashed Tesla fans.
- somewhat_drunk 4y ago
  If you have to resort to semantics in an argument to make your point, you've already lost.
  - _hypx 4y ago
    No, it's pointing out the obvious. Why are BEV fanatics so antagonistic to another EV? It is entirely about the competitive threat of them, not about any actual criticism. Which BTW is almost nonexistence because again, they're both EVs.

nordsieck 4y ago

> Whereas EV technology has almost no maintenance, a motor with one moving part and regenerative braking that means even the brakes last forever. The accountants at Toyota would definitely frown at that. That doesn't seem right. Of all the major brands, Toyota (and Lexus) is the most reliable. They are the opposite of planned obsolescence - they work hard to make their cars last for a very long time. I suppose in the short term, that's a downside for them, but in the long term, their reputation for being extremely reliable pays off in multiple ways - more demand, higher residual value, etc. I have no idea why the Japanese auto makers chased hydrogen so hard, but there as to be some other reason. Otherwise we would have seen declining reliability in their gas lineup before now.

somewhat_drunk 4y ago
Agreed. I think Toyota embraced H2 not because they wanted to replace a complex ICE with a complex PEMFC, but because a) Japan has no oil or mineral reserves to speak of, and b) when they started down that path, battery tech was woefully inadequate. Now that we've seen that batteries can power passenger vehicles just fine, I think Toyota and the Japanese government are both stubbornly engaging in the sunk cost fallacy. But the writing's on the wall: H2 is dead tech for passenger vehicles.
- _hypx 4y ago
  Wrong. All cars will eventually have to move to hydrogen. This is due to the unsustainability of battery cars. A lot of the anti-Japan rhetoric here is bordering on racism. They are actually planning ahead. Western carmakers are short-sighted and not thinking past the next few quarters.
  - somewhat_drunk 4y ago
    Why is it so easy to spot the right winger these days? Oh that's right, it's because you all parrot the same nonsense. The valuable materials in EV batteries don't get used up - they're still in the battery, and can be recycled. We haven't figured out the particulars, but there's no reason why it can't be done. In fact, the biggest issue that battery recyclers are facing right now is a lack of batteries to recycle. Stop swallowing propaganda wholesale. Start thinking for yourself.
    - _hypx 4y ago
      And what is hydrogen but fuel made from water? Far less raw materials than could ever be achieved with batteries. And you'll never have to mine it even once. Seriously, the battery people act exactly like climate change deniers. An entire argument based on denying or obfuscating the problem, and pretending nothing better could ever exist. Seriously, your whole post is projection.
      - somewhat_drunk 4y ago
        >And what is hydrogen but fuel made from water? 98% of H2 is made from fossil fuels. You know why, right?
        _hypx 4y ago
        So is the vast majority of electricity. Take away hydropower and nuclear, and it's something like 85%. Use to be 99% at one point.

_hypx 4y ago

This is also total bullshit. A fuel cell car is also an EV. Toyota is pursuing because it is the simply the better idea. People who repeat this bullshit are just brainwashed Tesla fans.

somewhat_drunk 4y ago
If you have to resort to semantics in an argument to make your point, you've already lost.
- _hypx 4y ago
  No, it's pointing out the obvious. Why are BEV fanatics so antagonistic to another EV? It is entirely about the competitive threat of them, not about any actual criticism. Which BTW is almost nonexistence because again, they're both EVs.