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> A helpless manager is like a child - if left alone, they'll just shout and cause problems. What they really need is direction and structure. What they really

> A helpless manager is like a child - if left alone, they'll just shout and cause problems. What they really need is direction and structure. What they really need is to find a different job. Needing to "manage up" is the ultimate waste of resources IMO and puts a lot of stress on the employees, why even have a manager at that point.

TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
While I tend to agree with you, this doesn't look like anything actionable. I've even tried it by saying something like: "I get the impression you don't really enjoy your job" and getting a response something like "no, I hate it, I hate trying to manage people", and then suggesting the look at job ads. Nothing has changed since.
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  I agree, and to make matters worse, IME managers of managers tend to be very apathetic of their reports and don't have the same kind of scrutiny of the folks under them that they expect those same people to have of their reports. So the people that shouldn't be managing others don't really have a "check" above them to confirm it, especially if they're good at deflecting blame/sacrificing their reports. I'm a big advocate for no confidence votes from reports to signal to someone that this person needs to go.
8ytecoder 4y ago
Right, circular logic. If I have to manage my manager, can I just manage myself?
idopmstuff 4y ago
I think more often than not what they need is training - I tend to see this kind of thing in people who were promoted from IC to manager but never actually trained for the job. A manager can definitely be helpful in this situation - a good one will be a barrier between you and whoever is above them, credibly telling those people that the best thing to do is leave you alone.
- WalterSear 4y ago
  And what's their managers' excuse, then?
chrisweekly 4y ago
Strong disagree. Managing up is an increasingly necessary and valuable skill, the further in your career you progress.
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  I never said it's an unnecessary skill. My point is that having to do it should be a red flag for dysfunctional leadership.
  - schrodinger 4y ago
    That doesn't seem fair to me. An example from my job—we had a SEV 0 incident, and an _extremely_ important partners was calling our CTO directly to find out details, estimated time to resolution, etc. Being able to clearly articulate the problem at the CTO → 3rd party level in a way is a pretty important example of managing up in my opinion.
- atoav 4y ago
  Re-read the post you have been commenting on and point out where it says that managment isn't important. What that post said is in fact that managment can be so important that it can't be left to people who are bad at it.
  - chrisweekly 4y ago
    Huh? Maybe your comment was aimed elsewhere in the thread; I never said management isn't important. I responded simply and directly to this comment: > Needing to "manage up" is the ultimate waste of resources... why even have a manager at that point. This kind of blanket refusal to engage meaningfully with one's manager and provide upward feedback creates a vicious cycle that compounds the problem. (PoV based on 25y in the industry, spanning startups and enterprises, in IC and managerial roles incl VP.)

TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago

While I tend to agree with you, this doesn't look like anything actionable. I've even tried it by saying something like: "I get the impression you don't really enjoy your job" and getting a response something like "no, I hate it, I hate trying to manage people", and then suggesting the look at job ads. Nothing has changed since.

candiddevmike 4y ago
I agree, and to make matters worse, IME managers of managers tend to be very apathetic of their reports and don't have the same kind of scrutiny of the folks under them that they expect those same people to have of their reports. So the people that shouldn't be managing others don't really have a "check" above them to confirm it, especially if they're good at deflecting blame/sacrificing their reports. I'm a big advocate for no confidence votes from reports to signal to someone that this person needs to go.

8ytecoder 4y ago

Right, circular logic. If I have to manage my manager, can I just manage myself?

idopmstuff 4y ago

I think more often than not what they need is training - I tend to see this kind of thing in people who were promoted from IC to manager but never actually trained for the job. A manager can definitely be helpful in this situation - a good one will be a barrier between you and whoever is above them, credibly telling those people that the best thing to do is leave you alone.

WalterSear 4y ago
And what's their managers' excuse, then?

chrisweekly 4y ago

Strong disagree. Managing up is an increasingly necessary and valuable skill, the further in your career you progress.

candiddevmike 4y ago
I never said it's an unnecessary skill. My point is that having to do it should be a red flag for dysfunctional leadership.
- schrodinger 4y ago
  That doesn't seem fair to me. An example from my job—we had a SEV 0 incident, and an _extremely_ important partners was calling our CTO directly to find out details, estimated time to resolution, etc. Being able to clearly articulate the problem at the CTO → 3rd party level in a way is a pretty important example of managing up in my opinion.
atoav 4y ago
Re-read the post you have been commenting on and point out where it says that managment isn't important. What that post said is in fact that managment can be so important that it can't be left to people who are bad at it.
- chrisweekly 4y ago
  Huh? Maybe your comment was aimed elsewhere in the thread; I never said management isn't important. I responded simply and directly to this comment: > Needing to "manage up" is the ultimate waste of resources... why even have a manager at that point. This kind of blanket refusal to engage meaningfully with one's manager and provide upward feedback creates a vicious cycle that compounds the problem. (PoV based on 25y in the industry, spanning startups and enterprises, in IC and managerial roles incl VP.)