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I'd vehemently disagree. There's a clear cultural divide between the average of the US and the average of Europe on many topics, albeit much of that is a cause

I'd vehemently disagree. There's a clear cultural divide between the average of the US and the average of Europe on many topics, albeit much of that is a cause of the large quantity of remaining traditionalists in the US skewing the American average. For example there's clear differences on secularism, gun-rights, access to abortion, universal healthcare, labour laws, privacy and regulation. > The silent death of europe occured somewhere in the 00s Sorry, how are we measuring this exactly? It's a significant reach of a statement by almost every measure. For example; if the EU is so "dead" then why do US manufacturers respect its regulations?

amscanne 4y ago
> secularism, gun-rights, access to abortion, universal healthcare, labour laws, privacy and regulation I think most of these things are political rather than cultural. Specific laws take a variable amount of time to change/evolve, but are generally downstream of culture. Listing these kinds of political issues also tends to create a weird bias as you’re generally paying attention to the most extreme takes on all sides (e.g. you’ve listed access to abortion, but I would hardly consider this to be an indicator that the US was more culturally liberal than most of Europe pre-2022, just as I wouldn’t consider it an indicator that it is less culturally liberal post-2022,… it is more a political artifact than a genuine measure of culture).
giantg2 4y ago
"between the average of the US and the average of Europe" I'm not sure how one even defines these. As an example, most of the examples you give have a near 50/50 (+/-10%) split here in the US.
- Quarrelsome 4y ago
  > most of the examples you give have a near 50/50 (+/-10%) split here in the US. That's what I mean. Many of those issues don't have anywhere near a 50/50 split in Europe, which is part of the definition of social norms, expectations and cultural values.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    My bad, not average person, but average of the population. I got it. Although my statement still applies. You can look at voter breakdown by county to see a picture of how this 50/50 split is actually more homogeneous by locale. So there are cultural values, but they are at a more local level.
seydor 4y ago
There's no 'average european culture' as inter-european differences are bigger than US-europe divide. The US is basically our common cultural base now. > secularism, gun-rights, access to abortion, universal healthcare, labour laws, privacy and regulation At least 4 of those issues are american , not european. this just goes to show how much attention europeans pay to the US issues instead of our own issues (aging of population, demographic deficit, unaffordable housing, unemployment , lack of global competitiveness, old money, brain drain etc). And what about european tech? I only discuss about it on HN, a californian forum. > privacy While these are interesting issues, they are nowhere near the top of the mind of average european person. Nobody went out on the streets because they wanted cookie prompts. We are just letting bureaucrats run the show and tell us we should like it
- Quarrelsome 4y ago
  > The US is basically our common cultural base now This is wishful thinking. People pay a lot of attention to the US due to its cultural output and importance in geo-politics but when they open the door they still pay attention to their own locality which has its own context. > At least 4 of those issues are american , not european. I'm sorry, how are those issues not European? Do you think Europeans aren't human or something? They're social issues and its harmful to think the US has any sort of monopoly on them. I could easily pull concrete examples where those issues are relevant to European events that I might suggest you are unaware of. > While these are interesting issues, they are nowhere near the top of the mind of average european. I would argue that for an average European elector, privacy is a much greater expectation than it is for an American.
  - seydor 4y ago
    > how are those issues not European? because they are not contested in europe, only in the US > privacy is a much greater It's nowhere near as important as housing or employment i think. Strict privacy was mainly championed by German Greens, not a pan-european issue
    - detaro 4y ago
mytailorisrich 4y ago
When I go back to France I see burgers sold everywhere and massively more English words, both compared to 20 years ago. French culture has very noticeably diluted in that relatively short time.
- Quarrelsome 4y ago
  Use of language does not necessarily result in entirely changing the culture. Take South East Asia for example where they simply have their own spin on the English language. I fear that what the Anglosphere sees in this case is what it wants to see, its own victory, where in practice the actual outcome is more complex and doesn't necessarily result (in the long term) to the expectation.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    Sure, foreign words are very often adapted. But when you see for instance the cooking section of some French media renamed 'Food' that means something... or at least that the editor is an idiot.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- midoridensha 4y ago
  Was American culture "diluted" when pizza became popular in the mid-20th century?
jrockway 4y ago
> There's a clear cultural divide between the average of the US and the average of Europe on many topics This is very apparent to me reading HN late at night my time, which is mid-morning Europe time. It's like there are two totally different groups here. (We don't all think alike, of course, but there are prevailing views that tend to get upvoted. What's interesting to me is how it shifts with time!)
irrational 4y ago
> if the EU is so "dead" then why do US manufacturers respect its regulations? What does culture have to do with companies wanting the European money?
pessimizer 4y ago
> For example there's clear differences on secularism, gun-rights, access to abortion, universal healthcare, labour laws, privacy and regulation. I think this is a common Anglo-American outlook that thinks that generic European is the ultimate expression of Democrat (or Blairite Labour/LibDem). There are plenty of reactionary Europeans, and since they're not completely bound to US right-left ideologies there are plenty of examples of e.g. race-realist environmentalists, or anti-abortion socialists. edit: I mean, you've offered a literal list of US wedge issues, and assumed that Europe takes the Democratic Party position on them.
Kamq 4y ago
> For example; if the EU is so "dead" then why do US manufacturers respect its regulations? I don't want to take a side on this one, but is your argument here really that US capitalists have high philosophical standards on what market they'll enter?

amscanne 4y ago

> secularism, gun-rights, access to abortion, universal healthcare, labour laws, privacy and regulation I think most of these things are political rather than cultural. Specific laws take a variable amount of time to change/evolve, but are generally downstream of culture. Listing these kinds of political issues also tends to create a weird bias as you’re generally paying attention to the most extreme takes on all sides (e.g. you’ve listed access to abortion, but I would hardly consider this to be an indicator that the US was more culturally liberal than most of Europe pre-2022, just as I wouldn’t consider it an indicator that it is less culturally liberal post-2022,… it is more a political artifact than a genuine measure of culture).

giantg2 4y ago

"between the average of the US and the average of Europe" I'm not sure how one even defines these. As an example, most of the examples you give have a near 50/50 (+/-10%) split here in the US.

Quarrelsome 4y ago
> most of the examples you give have a near 50/50 (+/-10%) split here in the US. That's what I mean. Many of those issues don't have anywhere near a 50/50 split in Europe, which is part of the definition of social norms, expectations and cultural values.
- giantg2 4y ago
  My bad, not average person, but average of the population. I got it. Although my statement still applies. You can look at voter breakdown by county to see a picture of how this 50/50 split is actually more homogeneous by locale. So there are cultural values, but they are at a more local level.

seydor 4y ago

There's no 'average european culture' as inter-european differences are bigger than US-europe divide. The US is basically our common cultural base now. > secularism, gun-rights, access to abortion, universal healthcare, labour laws, privacy and regulation At least 4 of those issues are american , not european. this just goes to show how much attention europeans pay to the US issues instead of our own issues (aging of population, demographic deficit, unaffordable housing, unemployment , lack of global competitiveness, old money, brain drain etc). And what about european tech? I only discuss about it on HN, a californian forum. > privacy While these are interesting issues, they are nowhere near the top of the mind of average european person. Nobody went out on the streets because they wanted cookie prompts. We are just letting bureaucrats run the show and tell us we should like it

Quarrelsome 4y ago
> The US is basically our common cultural base now This is wishful thinking. People pay a lot of attention to the US due to its cultural output and importance in geo-politics but when they open the door they still pay attention to their own locality which has its own context. > At least 4 of those issues are american , not european. I'm sorry, how are those issues not European? Do you think Europeans aren't human or something? They're social issues and its harmful to think the US has any sort of monopoly on them. I could easily pull concrete examples where those issues are relevant to European events that I might suggest you are unaware of. > While these are interesting issues, they are nowhere near the top of the mind of average european. I would argue that for an average European elector, privacy is a much greater expectation than it is for an American.
- seydor 4y ago
  > how are those issues not European? because they are not contested in europe, only in the US > privacy is a much greater It's nowhere near as important as housing or employment i think. Strict privacy was mainly championed by German Greens, not a pan-european issue
  - detaro 4y ago

mytailorisrich 4y ago

When I go back to France I see burgers sold everywhere and massively more English words, both compared to 20 years ago. French culture has very noticeably diluted in that relatively short time.

Quarrelsome 4y ago
Use of language does not necessarily result in entirely changing the culture. Take South East Asia for example where they simply have their own spin on the English language. I fear that what the Anglosphere sees in this case is what it wants to see, its own victory, where in practice the actual outcome is more complex and doesn't necessarily result (in the long term) to the expectation.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  Sure, foreign words are very often adapted. But when you see for instance the cooking section of some French media renamed 'Food' that means something... or at least that the editor is an idiot.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
midoridensha 4y ago
Was American culture "diluted" when pizza became popular in the mid-20th century?

jrockway 4y ago

> There's a clear cultural divide between the average of the US and the average of Europe on many topics This is very apparent to me reading HN late at night my time, which is mid-morning Europe time. It's like there are two totally different groups here. (We don't all think alike, of course, but there are prevailing views that tend to get upvoted. What's interesting to me is how it shifts with time!)

irrational 4y ago

> if the EU is so "dead" then why do US manufacturers respect its regulations? What does culture have to do with companies wanting the European money?

pessimizer 4y ago

> For example there's clear differences on secularism, gun-rights, access to abortion, universal healthcare, labour laws, privacy and regulation. I think this is a common Anglo-American outlook that thinks that generic European is the ultimate expression of Democrat (or Blairite Labour/LibDem). There are plenty of reactionary Europeans, and since they're not completely bound to US right-left ideologies there are plenty of examples of e.g. race-realist environmentalists, or anti-abortion socialists. edit: I mean, you've offered a literal list of US wedge issues, and assumed that Europe takes the Democratic Party position on them.

Kamq 4y ago

> For example; if the EU is so "dead" then why do US manufacturers respect its regulations? I don't want to take a side on this one, but is your argument here really that US capitalists have high philosophical standards on what market they'll enter?