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The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. It’s always been touch and go. Garbaldi and Mussolin

The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. It’s always been touch and go. Garbaldi and Mussolini placed a strong emphasis on “nationalism,” but other leaders were more focused on a building coalitions. Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties? I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis ship was blown off course during a storm. No idea if that’s true.

hunglee2 4y ago
yes absolutely, 'Italian' is Florentine right? Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian, modern Spanish essentially Castillian. There is never an neutral language, it is linguistic supremacism one over the other. I absolutely respect Sicilians (and other regional groups) for resisting 'Florentine cultural imperialism'
- samus 4y ago
  It's considerably different in Italy since Florence never had any sort of political dominance over Italy. Even though it was very briefly formidable during the Renaissance, its influence has otherwise been mostly cultural only. Because of this, authors and scientists settled on a Koinè based on Florentine during the Renaissance. Until the 19th century, it was barely spoken, even in Tuscany.
  - hunglee2 4y ago
    very interesting. So perhaps Florentine was an example of a 'neutral' (or at least acceptable compromise) language to be used as the national language.
    - flopriore 4y ago
      Kinda yes, in addition it was the language in which 3 of the most important Italian poets (Dante, Petrarca and Boccaccio) wrote. To be honest, even if Florentine became the official Italian language soon after Italy was unified in 1861, it wasn't until 1960s that Italians started to speak it everyday thanks to radio and TV. In addition, I would argue that the use of dialects is still a thing here (and these dialects not only are very different languages from Florentine, but they drastically differ within a range of 10 km from one town to another)
      - samus 4y ago
        Even Tuscan dialects can be quite divergent from Standard Italian, as the latter branched off like 500 years ago.
  - angrais 4y ago
    I'm not sure that's quite correct given the banking sector (Medici) originates in Florence (Tuscany generally) who had considered political power over the pope (Rome), and hence across the kingdoms/country.
    - samus 4y ago
      I was actually referring to precisely that. And sponsoring Renaissance artists and scientist contributed to the eminence of Florentin. Control over the Church was rarely as useful within Italy as outside of it. The papacy always had strong enemies on the peninsula. Much of its policy was dedicated to keep them divided and to ensure that those didn't ally with outside powers.
- elnatro 4y ago
  Modern Spanish is not Castillian. The Spanish Royal Academy recognizes and acknowledges all varieties and dialects of Spanish. Castillian is only one of them.
  - marc_abonce 4y ago
    While the RAE recommends calling the language Spanish, it recognizes that Castilian is a synonym of Spanish. [1] My personal experience also corroborates this. In common usage, Castilian is the same language as Spanish and in fact I hear people from Spain refer to the language as Castilian, even when talking about the language as spoken in Latin America, regardless of the Academy's prescription. [1] https://www.rae.es/dpd/espa%2525C3%2525B1ol https://www.rae.es/dpd/espa%2525C3%2525B1ol
    - elnatro 4y ago
      Calling the language “Castilian” or “Spanish” would depend on what region are you based on. In mine, “Spanish” is more used, and in most parts of the Americas.
- Bayart 4y ago
  > Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian French was normalized as a written language around the great feudal courts of Northern France, at the time Paris wasn't particularly influential culturally. Parisian French was itself quite distinct from "government French" until recently.
mmarq 4y ago
> The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. Italian is not a northern but rather a central Italian language. > Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties? Movimento Sociale Italiano, was a nationalist neofascist party that became Fratelli d’Italia, the current governing party. FdI gets more votes in the south than in the north. Lega is a weird beast, sometimes anti-southern now nationalist and anti-immigration. > I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis ship was blown off course during a storm. Was Garibaldi trying to annex Algeria and went off course? Your Sicilian family is not well versed in Italian history.

hunglee2 4y ago

yes absolutely, 'Italian' is Florentine right? Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian, modern Spanish essentially Castillian. There is never an neutral language, it is linguistic supremacism one over the other. I absolutely respect Sicilians (and other regional groups) for resisting 'Florentine cultural imperialism'

samus 4y ago
It's considerably different in Italy since Florence never had any sort of political dominance over Italy. Even though it was very briefly formidable during the Renaissance, its influence has otherwise been mostly cultural only. Because of this, authors and scientists settled on a Koinè based on Florentine during the Renaissance. Until the 19th century, it was barely spoken, even in Tuscany.
- hunglee2 4y ago
  very interesting. So perhaps Florentine was an example of a 'neutral' (or at least acceptable compromise) language to be used as the national language.
  - flopriore 4y ago
    Kinda yes, in addition it was the language in which 3 of the most important Italian poets (Dante, Petrarca and Boccaccio) wrote. To be honest, even if Florentine became the official Italian language soon after Italy was unified in 1861, it wasn't until 1960s that Italians started to speak it everyday thanks to radio and TV. In addition, I would argue that the use of dialects is still a thing here (and these dialects not only are very different languages from Florentine, but they drastically differ within a range of 10 km from one town to another)
    - samus 4y ago
      Even Tuscan dialects can be quite divergent from Standard Italian, as the latter branched off like 500 years ago.
- angrais 4y ago
  I'm not sure that's quite correct given the banking sector (Medici) originates in Florence (Tuscany generally) who had considered political power over the pope (Rome), and hence across the kingdoms/country.
  - samus 4y ago
    I was actually referring to precisely that. And sponsoring Renaissance artists and scientist contributed to the eminence of Florentin. Control over the Church was rarely as useful within Italy as outside of it. The papacy always had strong enemies on the peninsula. Much of its policy was dedicated to keep them divided and to ensure that those didn't ally with outside powers.
elnatro 4y ago
Modern Spanish is not Castillian. The Spanish Royal Academy recognizes and acknowledges all varieties and dialects of Spanish. Castillian is only one of them.
- marc_abonce 4y ago
  While the RAE recommends calling the language Spanish, it recognizes that Castilian is a synonym of Spanish. [1] My personal experience also corroborates this. In common usage, Castilian is the same language as Spanish and in fact I hear people from Spain refer to the language as Castilian, even when talking about the language as spoken in Latin America, regardless of the Academy's prescription. [1] https://www.rae.es/dpd/espa%2525C3%2525B1ol https://www.rae.es/dpd/espa%2525C3%2525B1ol
  - elnatro 4y ago
    Calling the language “Castilian” or “Spanish” would depend on what region are you based on. In mine, “Spanish” is more used, and in most parts of the Americas.
Bayart 4y ago
> Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian French was normalized as a written language around the great feudal courts of Northern France, at the time Paris wasn't particularly influential culturally. Parisian French was itself quite distinct from "government French" until recently.

mmarq 4y ago

> The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. Italian is not a northern but rather a central Italian language. > Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties? Movimento Sociale Italiano, was a nationalist neofascist party that became Fratelli d’Italia, the current governing party. FdI gets more votes in the south than in the north. Lega is a weird beast, sometimes anti-southern now nationalist and anti-immigration. > I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis ship was blown off course during a storm. Was Garibaldi trying to annex Algeria and went off course? Your Sicilian family is not well versed in Italian history.