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But “Italian nationalists” aren’t a thing. There have been Italian language wars in border regions but they fizzle once non-locals get involved. For example,

But “Italian nationalists” aren’t a thing. There have been Italian language wars in border regions but they fizzle once non-locals get involved. For example, South Tyrol has a large German speaking population. The Italian government has historically encouraged adoption of Italian. But South Tyrol has (had?) a large Sicilian population that supported the local German speakers.

hunglee2 4y ago
Very interesting observation! I think it's great if local languages and identifies can continue to thrive, but I don't think it can be said that Italian nationalism isn't a thing though - it has explicitly been a thing as the suppression of regional dialects and the 'making of Italians' was a stated objective of Italian nationalists immediately after the unification of Italy. btw this does not make Italy exceptional in any way, the way modern 'nation states' were built followed exactly this pattern - suppression of regional languages - 'cultural genocide' - and the creation a new national identity to replace them
- pyuser583 4y ago
  The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. It’s always been touch and go. Garbaldi and Mussolini placed a strong emphasis on “nationalism,” but other leaders were more focused on a building coalitions. Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties? I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis ship was blown off course during a storm. No idea if that’s true.
  - hunglee2 4y ago
    yes absolutely, 'Italian' is Florentine right? Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian, modern Spanish essentially Castillian. There is never an neutral language, it is linguistic supremacism one over the other. I absolutely respect Sicilians (and other regional groups) for resisting 'Florentine cultural imperialism'
    - samus 4y ago
      It's considerably different in Italy since Florence never had any sort of political dominance over Italy. Even though it was very briefly formidable during the Renaissance, its influence has otherwise been mostly cultural only. Because of this, authors and scientists settled on a Koinè based on Florentine during the Renaissance. Until the 19th century, it was barely spoken, even in Tuscany.
      - hunglee2 4y ago
        very interesting. So perhaps Florentine was an example of a 'neutral' (or at least acceptable compromise) language to be used as the national language.
        flopriore 4y ago
        Kinda yes, in addition it was the language in which 3 of the most important Italian poets (Dante, Petrarca and Boccaccio) wrote. To be honest, even if Florentine became the official Italian language soon after Italy was unified in 1861, it wasn't until 1960s that Italians started to speak it everyday thanks to radio and TV. In addition, I would argue that the use of dialects is still a thing here (and these dialects not only are very different languages from Florentine, but they drastically differ within a range of 10 km from one town to another)
        samus 4y ago
        Even Tuscan dialects can be quite divergent from Standard Italian, as the latter branched off like 500 years ago.
      - angrais 4y ago
        I'm not sure that's quite correct given the banking sector (Medici) originates in Florence (Tuscany generally) who had considered political power over the pope (Rome), and hence across the kingdoms/country.
        4y ago
  - mmarq 4y ago
    > The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. Italian is not a northern but rather a central Italian language. > Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties? Movimento Sociale Italiano, was a nationalist neofascist party that became Fratelli d’Italia, the current governing party. FdI gets more votes in the south than in the north. Lega is a weird beast, sometimes anti-southern now nationalist and anti-immigration. > I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis ship was blown off course during a storm. Was Garibaldi trying to annex Algeria and went off course? Your Sicilian family is not well versed in Italian history.
mmarq 4y ago
> For example, South Tyrol has a large German speaking population. The Italian government has historically encouraged adoption of Italian. They stopped doing that decades ago, before I was born. The language of the German minority is protected and their representation in Parliament is guaranteed by the constitution. The Autonomous Province of Bolzano has a high level of self-government and a special fiscal regime.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  Is there much of a Sicilian population? My Sicilian family (who are historically challenged) say there quite a few there before WWII.
toyg 4y ago
> But "Italian nationalists" aren't a thing I don't think you've paid much attention to the last 25 years of Italian politics. Italian nationalists are definitely a thing, and they are winning. The current government is led by openly-avowed post-fascists. The last time fascists were in power, Superman became "Nembo Kid", Internazionale Milano became "Ambrosiana Inter", and people with foreign surnames had to italianize them or risk ostracism (how do I know? My great-grandmother was one of them). One of the reasons Italian national identity is so traditionally weak in the postwar period is that its period of unabashed strength was so clearly associated with an unpresentable regime; the latest move by this government is an explicit bridge to that period, a dog whistling exercise that will work very well with their electorate.

hunglee2 4y ago

Very interesting observation! I think it's great if local languages and identifies can continue to thrive, but I don't think it can be said that Italian nationalism isn't a thing though - it has explicitly been a thing as the suppression of regional dialects and the 'making of Italians' was a stated objective of Italian nationalists immediately after the unification of Italy. btw this does not make Italy exceptional in any way, the way modern 'nation states' were built followed exactly this pattern - suppression of regional languages - 'cultural genocide' - and the creation a new national identity to replace them

pyuser583 4y ago
The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. It’s always been touch and go. Garbaldi and Mussolini placed a strong emphasis on “nationalism,” but other leaders were more focused on a building coalitions. Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties? I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis ship was blown off course during a storm. No idea if that’s true.
- hunglee2 4y ago
  yes absolutely, 'Italian' is Florentine right? Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian, modern Spanish essentially Castillian. There is never an neutral language, it is linguistic supremacism one over the other. I absolutely respect Sicilians (and other regional groups) for resisting 'Florentine cultural imperialism'
  - samus 4y ago
    It's considerably different in Italy since Florence never had any sort of political dominance over Italy. Even though it was very briefly formidable during the Renaissance, its influence has otherwise been mostly cultural only. Because of this, authors and scientists settled on a Koinè based on Florentine during the Renaissance. Until the 19th century, it was barely spoken, even in Tuscany.
    - hunglee2 4y ago
      very interesting. So perhaps Florentine was an example of a 'neutral' (or at least acceptable compromise) language to be used as the national language.
      - flopriore 4y ago
        Kinda yes, in addition it was the language in which 3 of the most important Italian poets (Dante, Petrarca and Boccaccio) wrote. To be honest, even if Florentine became the official Italian language soon after Italy was unified in 1861, it wasn't until 1960s that Italians started to speak it everyday thanks to radio and TV. In addition, I would argue that the use of dialects is still a thing here (and these dialects not only are very different languages from Florentine, but they drastically differ within a range of 10 km from one town to another)
        samus 4y ago
        Even Tuscan dialects can be quite divergent from Standard Italian, as the latter branched off like 500 years ago.
    - angrais 4y ago
      I'm not sure that's quite correct given the banking sector (Medici) originates in Florence (Tuscany generally) who had considered political power over the pope (Rome), and hence across the kingdoms/country.
      - 4y ago
- mmarq 4y ago
  > The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. Italian is not a northern but rather a central Italian language. > Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties? Movimento Sociale Italiano, was a nationalist neofascist party that became Fratelli d’Italia, the current governing party. FdI gets more votes in the south than in the north. Lega is a weird beast, sometimes anti-southern now nationalist and anti-immigration. > I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis ship was blown off course during a storm. Was Garibaldi trying to annex Algeria and went off course? Your Sicilian family is not well versed in Italian history.

mmarq 4y ago

> For example, South Tyrol has a large German speaking population. The Italian government has historically encouraged adoption of Italian. They stopped doing that decades ago, before I was born. The language of the German minority is protected and their representation in Parliament is guaranteed by the constitution. The Autonomous Province of Bolzano has a high level of self-government and a special fiscal regime.

pyuser583 4y ago
Is there much of a Sicilian population? My Sicilian family (who are historically challenged) say there quite a few there before WWII.

toyg 4y ago

> But "Italian nationalists" aren't a thing I don't think you've paid much attention to the last 25 years of Italian politics. Italian nationalists are definitely a thing, and they are winning. The current government is led by openly-avowed post-fascists. The last time fascists were in power, Superman became "Nembo Kid", Internazionale Milano became "Ambrosiana Inter", and people with foreign surnames had to italianize them or risk ostracism (how do I know? My great-grandmother was one of them). One of the reasons Italian national identity is so traditionally weak in the postwar period is that its period of unabashed strength was so clearly associated with an unpresentable regime; the latest move by this government is an explicit bridge to that period, a dog whistling exercise that will work very well with their electorate.