4 ms·

It is a very poor argument and ignores the fact that the lives of people, institutions and countries are not just about (the very important) jobs and economics.

It is a very poor argument and ignores the fact that the lives of people, institutions and countries are not just about (the very important) jobs and economics. I, who have lived in the United States for decades, cringe when English words are used instead of those of my native language to give a sense of respectability to those words. A global culture and a world homogenized in ways of living is a much less interesting world.

linhns 4y ago
Yes, and if you actually read the bill (I'm not Italian, just trying to translate it online), it just bans other languages in official documentation, which every country does. I'm surprised Italy has not done it until now.
- kuboble 4y ago
  From the article i understood it goes deeper. It includes all official communication like job offers - not limited to public institutions. So you could be fined for having a position for "Product Manager" or "Test Engineer", etc.
  - linhns 4y ago
    If you advertise these positions in English, that's fine. But must be Italian in official contracts.
- mmarq 4y ago
  No, its probably broader than that, but it’s not written very clearly. And it doesn’t matter because every year some new idiot emerges to propose laws like this, that are never approved and often not even discussed in Parliament.
aniforprez 4y ago
I'm sure it is very important that the government make it a punishable offense to say "bru-shetta" instead of "brus-ketta" for the word bruschetta. This is the kind of important government regulation that makes for a productive use of parliament time and the votes of the people
- gordian-mind 4y ago
  > This would mean that saying “bru-shetta” instead of “bru-sketta” could be a punishable offense. Maybe you missed the world "could" in this phrase. Actually, with a bit a critical thinking, you would realize this is a complete invention by the CNN author...
- borroka 4y ago
  "This is the kind of important government regulation that makes for a productive use of parliament time and the votes of the people" What is a "productive" use of the votes of the people is up for debate. I am not ashamed to say that I am all for strong regulations that preserve the use and dignity of local customs and traditions (when those customs and traditions don't affect the life and freedom of others, cruelty etc.).
version_five 4y ago
Culture can still thrive without being nationalist or traditionalist or whatever you call it. What would people think if there was an american movement to stop using foreign loan words in English because they're diluting our culture? I live in Quebec, Canada, where there is extreme policing of the French language, including various unconstitutional legislation to "preserve" French (the Canadian constitution has an override clause). It's a purely populist measure that does nothing for culture. I find it ironic but typical how much Quebec focuses on superficial cultural aspects (language) while hardly engaging at all with real questions of celebrating heritage - and other than the language, the culture is way closer to english canada than anything European. Anyway, these language things are shallow populist measures to whip up a base, they're not about serious stewardship of cultural identity.
- borroka 4y ago
  According to this comment, we should (just) accept that English, in a generation or two, will become some sort of world language with no interest in the preservation of other languages and cultures associated with those cultures. This is a bit provocative, but while we are there, we could also tear down the Colosseum, the Forum too since it is all rubbish, and build instead offices, or residential communities because who cares about those old buildings and "nationalists" and "traditionalists" or "whatever you want to call it". There is often this idea that if you do one thing, you cannot do another, like there is some trade-offs between the use of the local language on official documents and the management of museums. But most of the time, there are no trade-offs, and the two actions are independent. >> "What would people think if there was an american movement to stop using foreign loan words in English because they're diluting our culture?" I am generally in favor. I mean, better to hear "ham" than "proskiuto" anyway.
  - thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
    >> better to hear "ham" than "proskiuto" anyway. Ham and prosciutto are very different foods. If words come from another language and mean different things, let those words exist as they are. If a new native word is created from the foreign word, that is okay. That is how languages grow and evolve. The law in question just says official documents and communications must be in Italian which makes perfect sense in Italy.
dehrmann 4y ago
In college, I took an English/linguistics class called "History of the English Language." One big takeaway from it was that prescriptive languages never work, and pragmatism always wins over purity. You say you "cringe" when hearing English words in the context of your native language. English, too, is packed with loanwords. Espresso (I see you, Italian), taco, kimchi, sauna, schadenfreude, not to mention phrases lifted directly from other languages like "c'est la vie" or "et cetera." I don't disagree that a homogeneous world is less interesting, but in a world where you can travel between every major city in less than 24 hours, and communication is unified and instantaneous, this is the natural outcome, and government word policing is a losing fight.
- borroka 4y ago
  I don't see any inevitability in the development of human culture (and technology), which is instead often perceived as such when looking backwards and not forward. History could have been taken a million different trajectories and we, looking back at its course, would always be tempted to say that what's going on today was, overall, inevitable. If not for a very harsh winter decades ago, maybe German would be the lingua franca of today's Europe: "it was inevitable", many would say, "it all started with Bismarck". And I don't see why the fact that we use the word "espresso" (or expresso :)) in the US should mean that, in the US, Italian, Greek, or French words should be used in official documents as liberally as English words are in other non-English speaking countries' official documents. Why should it be acceptable to use "governance" instead of the Italian words "governo" or "amministrazione"? Why "fiscal compact" instead of "patto di bilancio" where both combinations of words express the same concept but one in a foreign language and the other in the official language of the country? Using "espresso" and not another (equivalent) English word makes sense, because the Italian word also denotes the origin of the product. Using "hip hop" makes sense in non-English speaking countries, like "rock" for the music (but not the stone). "Schadenfreude", on the other hand, still sounds quite ridiculous when said by non-German speaking people, a bit like using "I went to the Ville Lumière" instead of "I went to Paris, oh those croissants, mon dieu!". That language should not be regulated by any government, the ridiculousness of its use should just be common sense, which is unfortunately as scarce today as it was in the past. But a woman can dream. Which brings me to the another component: concepts expressed in English tend to appear, in non-English speaking countries, as more respectable, more serious. "That's how they do in the US, the wealthiest countries in the world!". But this is just smoke thrown into people's eyes.

linhns 4y ago

Yes, and if you actually read the bill (I'm not Italian, just trying to translate it online), it just bans other languages in official documentation, which every country does. I'm surprised Italy has not done it until now.

kuboble 4y ago
From the article i understood it goes deeper. It includes all official communication like job offers - not limited to public institutions. So you could be fined for having a position for "Product Manager" or "Test Engineer", etc.
- linhns 4y ago
  If you advertise these positions in English, that's fine. But must be Italian in official contracts.
mmarq 4y ago
No, its probably broader than that, but it’s not written very clearly. And it doesn’t matter because every year some new idiot emerges to propose laws like this, that are never approved and often not even discussed in Parliament.

aniforprez 4y ago

I'm sure it is very important that the government make it a punishable offense to say "bru-shetta" instead of "brus-ketta" for the word bruschetta. This is the kind of important government regulation that makes for a productive use of parliament time and the votes of the people

gordian-mind 4y ago
> This would mean that saying “bru-shetta” instead of “bru-sketta” could be a punishable offense. Maybe you missed the world "could" in this phrase. Actually, with a bit a critical thinking, you would realize this is a complete invention by the CNN author...
borroka 4y ago
"This is the kind of important government regulation that makes for a productive use of parliament time and the votes of the people" What is a "productive" use of the votes of the people is up for debate. I am not ashamed to say that I am all for strong regulations that preserve the use and dignity of local customs and traditions (when those customs and traditions don't affect the life and freedom of others, cruelty etc.).

version_five 4y ago

Culture can still thrive without being nationalist or traditionalist or whatever you call it. What would people think if there was an american movement to stop using foreign loan words in English because they're diluting our culture? I live in Quebec, Canada, where there is extreme policing of the French language, including various unconstitutional legislation to "preserve" French (the Canadian constitution has an override clause). It's a purely populist measure that does nothing for culture. I find it ironic but typical how much Quebec focuses on superficial cultural aspects (language) while hardly engaging at all with real questions of celebrating heritage - and other than the language, the culture is way closer to english canada than anything European. Anyway, these language things are shallow populist measures to whip up a base, they're not about serious stewardship of cultural identity.

borroka 4y ago
According to this comment, we should (just) accept that English, in a generation or two, will become some sort of world language with no interest in the preservation of other languages and cultures associated with those cultures. This is a bit provocative, but while we are there, we could also tear down the Colosseum, the Forum too since it is all rubbish, and build instead offices, or residential communities because who cares about those old buildings and "nationalists" and "traditionalists" or "whatever you want to call it". There is often this idea that if you do one thing, you cannot do another, like there is some trade-offs between the use of the local language on official documents and the management of museums. But most of the time, there are no trade-offs, and the two actions are independent. >> "What would people think if there was an american movement to stop using foreign loan words in English because they're diluting our culture?" I am generally in favor. I mean, better to hear "ham" than "proskiuto" anyway.
- thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
  >> better to hear "ham" than "proskiuto" anyway. Ham and prosciutto are very different foods. If words come from another language and mean different things, let those words exist as they are. If a new native word is created from the foreign word, that is okay. That is how languages grow and evolve. The law in question just says official documents and communications must be in Italian which makes perfect sense in Italy.

dehrmann 4y ago

In college, I took an English/linguistics class called "History of the English Language." One big takeaway from it was that prescriptive languages never work, and pragmatism always wins over purity. You say you "cringe" when hearing English words in the context of your native language. English, too, is packed with loanwords. Espresso (I see you, Italian), taco, kimchi, sauna, schadenfreude, not to mention phrases lifted directly from other languages like "c'est la vie" or "et cetera." I don't disagree that a homogeneous world is less interesting, but in a world where you can travel between every major city in less than 24 hours, and communication is unified and instantaneous, this is the natural outcome, and government word policing is a losing fight.

borroka 4y ago
I don't see any inevitability in the development of human culture (and technology), which is instead often perceived as such when looking backwards and not forward. History could have been taken a million different trajectories and we, looking back at its course, would always be tempted to say that what's going on today was, overall, inevitable. If not for a very harsh winter decades ago, maybe German would be the lingua franca of today's Europe: "it was inevitable", many would say, "it all started with Bismarck". And I don't see why the fact that we use the word "espresso" (or expresso :)) in the US should mean that, in the US, Italian, Greek, or French words should be used in official documents as liberally as English words are in other non-English speaking countries' official documents. Why should it be acceptable to use "governance" instead of the Italian words "governo" or "amministrazione"? Why "fiscal compact" instead of "patto di bilancio" where both combinations of words express the same concept but one in a foreign language and the other in the official language of the country? Using "espresso" and not another (equivalent) English word makes sense, because the Italian word also denotes the origin of the product. Using "hip hop" makes sense in non-English speaking countries, like "rock" for the music (but not the stone). "Schadenfreude", on the other hand, still sounds quite ridiculous when said by non-German speaking people, a bit like using "I went to the Ville Lumière" instead of "I went to Paris, oh those croissants, mon dieu!". That language should not be regulated by any government, the ridiculousness of its use should just be common sense, which is unfortunately as scarce today as it was in the past. But a woman can dream. Which brings me to the another component: concepts expressed in English tend to appear, in non-English speaking countries, as more respectable, more serious. "That's how they do in the US, the wealthiest countries in the world!". But this is just smoke thrown into people's eyes.