5 ms·

Societal structures arise to manage contradictions in society on behalf of the ruling class. One example of this is policing in the US: modern day policing aros

Societal structures arise to manage contradictions in society on behalf of the ruling class. One example of this is policing in the US: modern day policing arose from slave patrols [0]. This societal structure of slave patrols arose to manage the contradiction in society of slave uprisings or slaves running away on behalf of the slave-owner class. The government is also a societal structure that arises in society to manage contradictions between classes on behalf of the ruling class. In the US the laws and enforcement benefit the ruling class. Until a different ruling class takes over, America will continue to subsidize affluence rather than alleviate poverty. [0]: https://naacp.org/find-resources/history-explained/origins-modern-day-policing https://naacp.org/find-resources/history-explained/origins-m...

davidgay 4y ago
> One example of this is policing in the US: modern day policing arose from slave patrols [0]. This seems poorly supported, even by the cited article - it just says there was a group A doing X, then A doing Y, then later the police did Y too. And, what about: - police forces outside the South? - influence from policing around the world, especially England?
- ashwagary 4y ago
  >police forces outside the South? Slavery existed outside the South. >influence from policing around the world, especially England? English policing had very different standards that were derived from Peelian Principles [0], at least until the very recent push for militarization. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
- wonder_er 4y ago
  'whataboutism' is unbecoming. That there might exist other influences behind modern day policing than just slave patrols doesn't free the institution from that stain. Policing as an institution should be recognized as what it is - one social class being given tremendous resources to support the casual and regular enactment of violence upon other social classes. I, personally, don't rely on violence, or threats of violence, in my day to day, and don't support anyone else doing the same, even if they think they really really really need violence in their lives.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    > I, personally, don't rely on violence, or threats of violence, in my day to day Sure you do. You might not have to actually make the threats, but the implicit threat protects you and your property.
    - wonder_er 4y ago
      Ooooh, hard disagree. Just because I live in a place where the police claim jurisdiction doesn't mean I consent to it. Their threats don't protect me any more than I protect myself with threats against others. Which I don't. I'm big on consent. Do not say something so nakedly condescending and dismissive of my stated views. Do you do this to others? 'i don't consent to [...]' 'sure you do. [...]' For your sake and those you interact with, I hope the answer is 'no'.
      - leereeves 4y ago
        Whether you consent to policing or not, police exist, and they protect you from people who don't rely on consent. You can't absolve yourself of that by simply denying it. You'd need to make it clear that anything you temporarily possess is free for the taking and that people are free to assault or kill you without police response (and somehow convince the police to honor your wishes).
        wonder_er 4y ago
        You and I have a different mental model of how policing works. I think you are both believing the propaganda about the existence of policing agencies, and projecting your beliefs about them onto me. Police don't protect people from people. People don't not assault and kill others because of police. There's abundant counterfactuals I could list that demonstrate that people generally don't avoid unethical behavior because of the police. And, police are often the originators of unethical behavior. I humbly propose that you grow your mental model of policing in America to a more sophisticated level. Marketing is not reality.
janalsncm 4y ago
Every time I hear about slave patrols becoming police departments it smacks of a genetic fallacy: just because some slave patrols became police departments is that really a good explanation for why the Chicago PD or LA PD are bad?
- wonder_er 4y ago
  Sounds like you don't like the assertion and are asking the asserter to do more work to convince you. What books on policing have you read? What credibility do you bring to disregard the assertion? And yes, the association between deputized slave patrols and Chicago and la police departments is sufficient to explain the harm these institutions cause. Policing, as an institution, should be eliminated. Stop the paychecks, eliminate the categorical exception they get for doing violence to others.
  - janalsncm 4y ago
    > And yes, the association between deputized slave patrols and Chicago and la police departments is sufficient to explain the harm these institutions cause. People may not understand this, but simply restating a premise without further evidence makes the assertion weaker, not stronger. If there was evidence, it would have been presented.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    > Policing, as an institution, should be eliminated What would you do about murderers?
    - wonder_er 4y ago
      Like I said, The police as an institution should be eliminated. Was I unclear?
      - leereeves 4y ago
        You were unclear about what happens next and I wanted to give you a chance to explain. Because I don't think you meant that you would simply eliminate the police and allow murderers to roam free. Or allow private security forces, gangs, and warlords to take over. So after you eliminate the police, how would you arrange your ideal society?

davidgay 4y ago

> One example of this is policing in the US: modern day policing arose from slave patrols [0]. This seems poorly supported, even by the cited article - it just says there was a group A doing X, then A doing Y, then later the police did Y too. And, what about: - police forces outside the South? - influence from policing around the world, especially England?

ashwagary 4y ago
>police forces outside the South? Slavery existed outside the South. >influence from policing around the world, especially England? English policing had very different standards that were derived from Peelian Principles [0], at least until the very recent push for militarization. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
wonder_er 4y ago
'whataboutism' is unbecoming. That there might exist other influences behind modern day policing than just slave patrols doesn't free the institution from that stain. Policing as an institution should be recognized as what it is - one social class being given tremendous resources to support the casual and regular enactment of violence upon other social classes. I, personally, don't rely on violence, or threats of violence, in my day to day, and don't support anyone else doing the same, even if they think they really really really need violence in their lives.
- leereeves 4y ago
  > I, personally, don't rely on violence, or threats of violence, in my day to day Sure you do. You might not have to actually make the threats, but the implicit threat protects you and your property.
  - wonder_er 4y ago
    Ooooh, hard disagree. Just because I live in a place where the police claim jurisdiction doesn't mean I consent to it. Their threats don't protect me any more than I protect myself with threats against others. Which I don't. I'm big on consent. Do not say something so nakedly condescending and dismissive of my stated views. Do you do this to others? 'i don't consent to [...]' 'sure you do. [...]' For your sake and those you interact with, I hope the answer is 'no'.
    - leereeves 4y ago
      Whether you consent to policing or not, police exist, and they protect you from people who don't rely on consent. You can't absolve yourself of that by simply denying it. You'd need to make it clear that anything you temporarily possess is free for the taking and that people are free to assault or kill you without police response (and somehow convince the police to honor your wishes).
      - wonder_er 4y ago
        You and I have a different mental model of how policing works. I think you are both believing the propaganda about the existence of policing agencies, and projecting your beliefs about them onto me. Police don't protect people from people. People don't not assault and kill others because of police. There's abundant counterfactuals I could list that demonstrate that people generally don't avoid unethical behavior because of the police. And, police are often the originators of unethical behavior. I humbly propose that you grow your mental model of policing in America to a more sophisticated level. Marketing is not reality.

janalsncm 4y ago

Every time I hear about slave patrols becoming police departments it smacks of a genetic fallacy: just because some slave patrols became police departments is that really a good explanation for why the Chicago PD or LA PD are bad?

wonder_er 4y ago
Sounds like you don't like the assertion and are asking the asserter to do more work to convince you. What books on policing have you read? What credibility do you bring to disregard the assertion? And yes, the association between deputized slave patrols and Chicago and la police departments is sufficient to explain the harm these institutions cause. Policing, as an institution, should be eliminated. Stop the paychecks, eliminate the categorical exception they get for doing violence to others.
- janalsncm 4y ago
  > And yes, the association between deputized slave patrols and Chicago and la police departments is sufficient to explain the harm these institutions cause. People may not understand this, but simply restating a premise without further evidence makes the assertion weaker, not stronger. If there was evidence, it would have been presented.
- leereeves 4y ago
  > Policing, as an institution, should be eliminated What would you do about murderers?
  - wonder_er 4y ago
    Like I said, The police as an institution should be eliminated. Was I unclear?
    - leereeves 4y ago
      You were unclear about what happens next and I wanted to give you a chance to explain. Because I don't think you meant that you would simply eliminate the police and allow murderers to roam free. Or allow private security forces, gangs, and warlords to take over. So after you eliminate the police, how would you arrange your ideal society?