4 ms·

Ask HN: Are there 3D twisty puzzles that can only be simulated on a computer?

20 points by amichail 4y ago

In other words, such a puzzle would be impossible or very difficult to make in a physical form.

wlesieutre 4y ago
Not 3D, but how about 4D? https://superliminal.com/cube/ https://superliminal.com/cube/
- kristopolous 4y ago
  I wish people were a bit more concise when making video content. I watched that embedded video at 2x and it was still a drag. There's times to make videos long, but not like that
kevmoo1 4y ago
Before 3D printing, likely. Now: not sure. Folks are printing seamless chainmail. Pretty crazy.
macrolocal 4y ago
How about a Rubik’s cube with Spin(3) rotations?
ccooffee 4y ago
Is this a categorical question? I.e. "is it possible to create a 3D twisty puzzle that works on computers but not in the real world?" I can easily imagine a 3D twisty puzzle which allows self-intersection. (To be less cheesy, you could make the self-intersection an objective of the game, perhaps "same color cubes will combine into one cube when they intersect" and then trying to accomplish a final target 3D model.) I cannot imagine a computer simulation being more robust than reality without relaxing the rules of the physical world (like exclusivity of space/extent). Perhaps something like the Banach-Tarski Paradox[0], where a mathematical sphere can be split into two identical-to-the-first spheres? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox
- lupire 4y ago
  BT is uncountably infinitely detailed, so cannot be simulated by a computer.
dtagames 4y ago
Sure. Anything from Escher. Or with a Mobius strip.
hcrisp 4y ago
Monument Valley? https://www.monumentvalleygame.com/mvpc https://www.monumentvalleygame.com/mvpc
SnooSux 4y ago
It was once believed that 6x6 and higher Rubik's Cubes would be impossible to physically make. In the real world, the outermost edges have to be a little thicker or the faces rounded in order for the puzzle to stay together while being turned. Nowadays they're widely available on Amazon. The Megaminx puzzle is a dodecahedron, having 12 faces. Would it be possible to make a similar puzzle for an icosahedron? What about the stellated polyhedra? Or semi-regular polyhedra? There's no reason we have to stick to the platonic solids, right? I'm no expert in 3d geometry or twisty puzzle manufacturing but maybe this helps?
its-summertime 4y ago
http://www.zenbound.com/ http://www.zenbound.com/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/61600/Zen_Bound_2/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/61600/Zen_Bound_2/ https://www.nintendo.com/store/products/zen-bound-2-switch/ https://www.nintendo.com/store/products/zen-bound-2-switch/ possible in a physical form? certainly, but you would never know how much the sculptures are painted: The scoring would be completely impractical for a physical version
neop 4y ago
Puzzling Places for Quest is kind of like that for jigsaw puzzles: https://www.realities.io/puzzling-places https://www.realities.io/puzzling-places
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
whoopdedo 4y ago
Yes, game designers regularly take advantage of physically impossible models. Look at this map of the level "5-D Space" from Bungie's Marathon.[1] Like Doom, the map is made of 2D sectors, but without the restriction that sectors can't overlap. Bungie took advantage of this to create an impossible space. The crossing solid lines are part of different rooms that can't be seen from the other. Only sectors connected with the light colored two-sided lines are visible. So you could turn left four times but be in a different room than where you started. Overlapping was used in Tomb Raider III[2] to create a UFO that is larger on the inside than it is on the outside. (This had the unfortunate outcome where I was once killed by an enemy that was inside the UFO while I was outside, but the game thought we were in line-of-sight.) The original Tomb Raider games also used a trick to make the environment dynamic. When they needed to show a wall moving, or ceiling collapsing, or a room being filled with water, you'd be instantaneously teleported to a different map. Sneaky camera positioning made sure you never saw the change taking place. Teleporting is a common technique to make a map appear larger or more complex than it really is. One I learned recently is in The Witness[3]. The best example of a game built around physically impossible spaces is Antichamber[4]. You might enter a room, walk around a pillar, and exiti the same door but end up in a different place than where you started. Antichamber uses portal rendering to show areas that are larger on the inside than the outside, similar to the overlapping in "5-D Space". But also I think it has some teleporting. [1] https://www.lhowon.org/level/marathon/30 https://www.lhowon.org/level/marathon/30 [2] https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=166545 https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=166545 [3] https://old.reddit.com/r/TheWitness/comments/47pr3h/spoilersmeta_the_existence_of_portal_technology/d0eseww/ https://old.reddit.com/r/TheWitness/comments/47pr3h/spoilers... [4] http://www.antichamber-game.com/ http://www.antichamber-game.com/
- lupire 4y ago
  Is that 3D? Seems not.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - schiffern 4y ago
alpaca128 4y ago
There's a really interesting video documenting and explaining the development of higher-dimensional Rubik's cubes and the partially successful efforts of constructing such puzzles in the real world: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTc-rG-nunA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTc-rG-nunA ("The Quest to Build a 4D Rubik's Cube")
dividuum 4y ago
Other games containing impossible spaces: * Hyperbolica - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1256230/Hyperbolica/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1256230/Hyperbolica/ - Allows you to navigate a non-euclidean world. Good luck staying oriented. * Miegakure - https://store.steampowered.com/app/355750/Miegakure/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/355750/Miegakure/ - Not yet available, but the videos are interesting. You navigate in a 3d'ish space, but can also modify time. * echochrome - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echochrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echochrome - What is real in this world depends on how you rotate it. A bit similar to FEZ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/224760/FEZ/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/224760/FEZ/)
- Shatnerz 4y ago
  I first heard about Miegakure from xkcd. It's been just about 13 years exactly since that comic. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/721:_Flatland https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/721:_Flatland
- throwaway8s8a0 4y ago
  * Superliminal - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/ It's a puzzle game based on shifting perspective and has a ton of "impossible" situations and heavy use of "world portals"
- recursivecaveat 4y ago
  Patrick's Parabox - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1260520/Patricks_Parabox/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1260520/Patricks_Parabox/ - sokoban that plays with space, including levels that contain themselves
dqft 4y ago
Moncage - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1195290/Moncage/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1195290/Moncage/ "Moncage is a stunning vignette puzzle adventure developed by Optillusion. The game takes place inside a mysterious cube, with each side of the cube housing a unique world: be it an old factory, a light tower, an amusement park, or a church, etc. At first sight, they may seem random and unrelated, but upon closer look, you will become mesmerized by the subtle and intricate ways of how these worlds connect."
klyrs 4y ago
Yep, you can abstract the Rubik's cube to pretty much any surface http://roice3.org/magictile/ http://roice3.org/magictile/
guyomes 4y ago
Quadratis [0] is a set of 2D twisty puzzle inspired by algebraic topology. It is mostly an experimental game so far. Here are some slides that give some insight on the principles of the game [1]. [0]: https://apps.apple.com/fr/app/quadratis/id1598700673 https://apps.apple.com/fr/app/quadratis/id1598700673 [1]: https://swissmaprs.ch/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/ParlierTurnerTalk.pdf https://swissmaprs.ch/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/ParlierTurn...

20 points by amichail 4y ago

In other words, such a puzzle would be impossible or very difficult to make in a physical form.

wlesieutre 4y ago

Not 3D, but how about 4D? https://superliminal.com/cube/ https://superliminal.com/cube/

kristopolous 4y ago
I wish people were a bit more concise when making video content. I watched that embedded video at 2x and it was still a drag. There's times to make videos long, but not like that

kevmoo1 4y ago

Before 3D printing, likely. Now: not sure. Folks are printing seamless chainmail. Pretty crazy.

macrolocal 4y ago

How about a Rubik’s cube with Spin(3) rotations?

ccooffee 4y ago

Is this a categorical question? I.e. "is it possible to create a 3D twisty puzzle that works on computers but not in the real world?" I can easily imagine a 3D twisty puzzle which allows self-intersection. (To be less cheesy, you could make the self-intersection an objective of the game, perhaps "same color cubes will combine into one cube when they intersect" and then trying to accomplish a final target 3D model.) I cannot imagine a computer simulation being more robust than reality without relaxing the rules of the physical world (like exclusivity of space/extent). Perhaps something like the Banach-Tarski Paradox[0], where a mathematical sphere can be split into two identical-to-the-first spheres? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox

lupire 4y ago
BT is uncountably infinitely detailed, so cannot be simulated by a computer.

dtagames 4y ago

Sure. Anything from Escher. Or with a Mobius strip.

hcrisp 4y ago

Monument Valley? https://www.monumentvalleygame.com/mvpc https://www.monumentvalleygame.com/mvpc

SnooSux 4y ago

It was once believed that 6x6 and higher Rubik's Cubes would be impossible to physically make. In the real world, the outermost edges have to be a little thicker or the faces rounded in order for the puzzle to stay together while being turned. Nowadays they're widely available on Amazon. The Megaminx puzzle is a dodecahedron, having 12 faces. Would it be possible to make a similar puzzle for an icosahedron? What about the stellated polyhedra? Or semi-regular polyhedra? There's no reason we have to stick to the platonic solids, right? I'm no expert in 3d geometry or twisty puzzle manufacturing but maybe this helps?

its-summertime 4y ago

http://www.zenbound.com/ http://www.zenbound.com/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/61600/Zen_Bound_2/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/61600/Zen_Bound_2/ https://www.nintendo.com/store/products/zen-bound-2-switch/ https://www.nintendo.com/store/products/zen-bound-2-switch/ possible in a physical form? certainly, but you would never know how much the sculptures are painted: The scoring would be completely impractical for a physical version

neop 4y ago

Puzzling Places for Quest is kind of like that for jigsaw puzzles: https://www.realities.io/puzzling-places https://www.realities.io/puzzling-places

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

whoopdedo 4y ago

Yes, game designers regularly take advantage of physically impossible models. Look at this map of the level "5-D Space" from Bungie's Marathon.[1] Like Doom, the map is made of 2D sectors, but without the restriction that sectors can't overlap. Bungie took advantage of this to create an impossible space. The crossing solid lines are part of different rooms that can't be seen from the other. Only sectors connected with the light colored two-sided lines are visible. So you could turn left four times but be in a different room than where you started. Overlapping was used in Tomb Raider III[2] to create a UFO that is larger on the inside than it is on the outside. (This had the unfortunate outcome where I was once killed by an enemy that was inside the UFO while I was outside, but the game thought we were in line-of-sight.) The original Tomb Raider games also used a trick to make the environment dynamic. When they needed to show a wall moving, or ceiling collapsing, or a room being filled with water, you'd be instantaneously teleported to a different map. Sneaky camera positioning made sure you never saw the change taking place. Teleporting is a common technique to make a map appear larger or more complex than it really is. One I learned recently is in The Witness[3]. The best example of a game built around physically impossible spaces is Antichamber[4]. You might enter a room, walk around a pillar, and exiti the same door but end up in a different place than where you started. Antichamber uses portal rendering to show areas that are larger on the inside than the outside, similar to the overlapping in "5-D Space". But also I think it has some teleporting. [1] https://www.lhowon.org/level/marathon/30 https://www.lhowon.org/level/marathon/30 [2] https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=166545 https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=166545 [3] https://old.reddit.com/r/TheWitness/comments/47pr3h/spoilersmeta_the_existence_of_portal_technology/d0eseww/ https://old.reddit.com/r/TheWitness/comments/47pr3h/spoilers... [4] http://www.antichamber-game.com/ http://www.antichamber-game.com/

lupire 4y ago
Is that 3D? Seems not.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- schiffern 4y ago

alpaca128 4y ago

There's a really interesting video documenting and explaining the development of higher-dimensional Rubik's cubes and the partially successful efforts of constructing such puzzles in the real world: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTc-rG-nunA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTc-rG-nunA ("The Quest to Build a 4D Rubik's Cube")

dividuum 4y ago

Other games containing impossible spaces: * Hyperbolica - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1256230/Hyperbolica/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1256230/Hyperbolica/ - Allows you to navigate a non-euclidean world. Good luck staying oriented. * Miegakure - https://store.steampowered.com/app/355750/Miegakure/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/355750/Miegakure/ - Not yet available, but the videos are interesting. You navigate in a 3d'ish space, but can also modify time. * echochrome - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echochrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echochrome - What is real in this world depends on how you rotate it. A bit similar to FEZ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/224760/FEZ/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/224760/FEZ/)

Shatnerz 4y ago
I first heard about Miegakure from xkcd. It's been just about 13 years exactly since that comic. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/721:_Flatland https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/721:_Flatland
throwaway8s8a0 4y ago
* Superliminal - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/ It's a puzzle game based on shifting perspective and has a ton of "impossible" situations and heavy use of "world portals"
recursivecaveat 4y ago
Patrick's Parabox - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1260520/Patricks_Parabox/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1260520/Patricks_Parabox/ - sokoban that plays with space, including levels that contain themselves

dqft 4y ago

Moncage - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1195290/Moncage/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1195290/Moncage/ "Moncage is a stunning vignette puzzle adventure developed by Optillusion. The game takes place inside a mysterious cube, with each side of the cube housing a unique world: be it an old factory, a light tower, an amusement park, or a church, etc. At first sight, they may seem random and unrelated, but upon closer look, you will become mesmerized by the subtle and intricate ways of how these worlds connect."

klyrs 4y ago

Yep, you can abstract the Rubik's cube to pretty much any surface http://roice3.org/magictile/ http://roice3.org/magictile/

guyomes 4y ago

Quadratis [0] is a set of 2D twisty puzzle inspired by algebraic topology. It is mostly an experimental game so far. Here are some slides that give some insight on the principles of the game [1]. [0]: https://apps.apple.com/fr/app/quadratis/id1598700673 https://apps.apple.com/fr/app/quadratis/id1598700673 [1]: https://swissmaprs.ch/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/ParlierTurnerTalk.pdf https://swissmaprs.ch/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/ParlierTurn...