4 ms·

Close, but the most efficient way to help people is to provide the services they need without depending on the private sector to deliver them. For example, if c

Close, but the most efficient way to help people is to provide the services they need without depending on the private sector to deliver them. For example, if cash benefits are universally increased by $500, low-end rents will also increase by approximately that same amount, like clock work. UBI would be a catastrophe for many reasons, but this is the most straightforward of them.

ISL 4y ago
If low-end rents double, building housing looks a lot more attractive.
- polygamous_bat 4y ago
  Except current landlords have local governments in a stranglehold and you can't build any new housing at all.
  - sologoub 4y ago
    That’s not the entire picture -Builder’s Remedy apperently is working: “ For example, after Santa Monica failed to pass a compliant housing development plan, developers employed the builder's remedy to move forward with the construction of approximately 4,000 new housing units spread across 12 new development sites.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Builder%27s_remedy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Builder%27s_remedy That’s nearly an 8.8% increase from the current 45,487 units total (including all houses) https://scag.ca.gov/sites/main/files/file-attachments/santa-monica-he-0421.pdf?1620767629 https://scag.ca.gov/sites/main/files/file-attachments/santa-...
    - catiopatio 4y ago
      It’s “working” insofar as it represents a giveaway to value-extracting development interests, nearly all of which seek to grow the permanent renter class. It remains to be seen whether that will reduce housing costs.
      - sologoub 4y ago
        Santa Monica is one of the most desirable areas in greater Los Angeles. I doubt the demand for it is that shallow. However, this helps more people (who are likely well off) to afford it and reduce pressures elsewhere. If your goal is a paid off place to live, SM isn’t the best choice unless you are either high income already or are set to receive a windfall somehow.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Low end rents are already really high and subsidies set a price floor. A two bedroom hovel in my city nets about $1200 section 8 voucher. A two bedroom in a nice development in the burbs is about $1300, and includes parking, pool and gym. Landlords are like oil people, it’s all about extractive value. You want to pump the most cash possible with the minimum overhead possible. Building housing gets attractive only when the government subsidizes construction through low rates and rapid tax depreciation. A relative was the lead on development of a $18M hotel. He probably has $750k in. Most of the money is made with accelerated depreciation. The hotel itself is an afterthought, you couldn’t build it without the backend tax subsidy.
- analog31 4y ago
  From what I've read, low income housing is actually more profitable for landlords.
Dig1t 4y ago
I’ve always thought this same thing about UBI. Like that episode of Futurama where every citizen gets a $300 bill from the government and in the background of the scene right after they announce it, you see the 99 cent store sign being changed to the $299.99 store. https://youtu.be/X_HyY-8dQJA https://youtu.be/X_HyY-8dQJA
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  This ignores the effects of increasing marginal income or marginal sales taxes, which can be adjusted to the desired level of wealth redistribution.
  - whitemary 4y ago
    Income tax and sales tax are both regressive taxes. In other words, they both promote inequality by favoring the capitalist class.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Marginal income and marginal sales taxes are not regressive, they are progressive.
Nifty3929 4y ago
For your housing example, we just need to produce more housing - but so many people are opposed to it. It's not that the private sector doesn't want to, obviously, they just aren't allowed to. You're making a good argument that we should allow for more housing to be built, but I don't see from your argument why it's better for that to be the government. I can't think of many examples where the government does a better job producing things than the private sector. Even in countries with, for example, socialized medicine, and assuming you think that works well, the services (I think) are still provided by private companies. Maybe the VA Hospitals in the US - though I'm not sure that's an example of the government doing better or not.
- whitemary 4y ago
  > For your housing example, we just need to produce more housing Existing property capital owners have a vested interest in not building more housing. Building more housing will negatively impact their profits. Existing property capital owners also have far more power than the petty bourgeoise investors seeking to "build more." This conflict of "NIMBYs vs YIMBYs" exemplifies a core contradiction of capitalism that Karl Marx articulated 150 years ago, except "NIMBYs" are not individual homeowners; they are rather the idols of the petty bourgeoise "YIMBYs." See: contradiction. Objectively, the working class has no place in this conflict and will not profit from building more housing. Of course we should build more and better housing for working people, but that is not what the petty bourgeoise investors actually want; they want to build more housing for profit. Big difference.
  - dantheman 4y ago
    No they have incentive for others not to build, but for them to build.
ruined 4y ago
"too much material wealth is captured by rent-seeking middlemen controlling access to location" is a problem with your property regime. yeah, by extension, it is a problem with any action you take under that property regime. but don't let that prevent you from talking about what the solutions to problems must be.
sologoub 4y ago
That argument about UBI may be true ceteris paribus (all else being equal), though even then it may not. The assumption seems to be that all other money flows and incomes remain the same and demand grows while supply remains the same. UBI (there are many proposals/variants) would likely require taxes that will make it basically zero beyond a certain level of income and negative further up (increase in tax on upper brackets). UBI will also incentivize some people to stop working and rely on UBI, so net effects won’t be a uniform increase in buying power. Rents are not uniform geographically and area usually related to how desirable a place is and how much work there is in the areas. With UBI consumers can choose to move away from jobs centers.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  Sounds like a recipe for increase in demand for goods/services, coupled with a simultaneous reduction in productivity. Won't this just make the country as a whole poorer?
  - sologoub 4y ago
    This redistribution already happens with progressive income tax brackets and tax refunds that don’t depend on amounts paid in. This is US tax code today. Might as well have a better safety net in case things go south.
  - mxkopy 4y ago
    > simultaneous reduction in productivity Hasn't productivity been on the rise the past X years? Shouldn't we have a little slack by this point?
    - specialist 4y ago
      And maybe some profit sharing too.
  - wutbrodo 4y ago
    First-order, yes: Redistributive policies don't have the sum of the country's wealth as their primary optimization objective. Arguably, their goal is closer (but not quite) to the sum of national utility, which follows from diminishing marginal utility. That being said, there are also claimed and real second-order effects of policies whose first-order economic effect is deadweight-loss. The entirety of government fits this description! To use the most trite and least controversial example, confiscating resources to build roads is redistribution from heavier taxpayers to heavier road users (incl downstream beneficiaries), but the second-order effects of a functional transportation are enough that we don't consider it to "make the country as a whole poorer"
skeeter2020 4y ago
this is only true if everybody needs the same services, thus everyone uses UBI for the same thing. In the case of rent this would point to a systemic issue for which cash payments is not going to correct it, but there are a lot of varied needs for which UBI far more efficient than a government program addressing it directly.
snapplebobapple 4y ago
I don't think you understand what the word efficient means because what you said about it is certainly untrue. The private sector will almost always deliver a better result as long as you mitigate market power abuse. You are basically saying it is more efficient to deliver services through a public system because said public system failed at mitigating market power. In the rent example a lot of that market power is even self inflicted by said public sector via onerous zoning and permitting regulations that make development only plausible via large, oligopolistic systems.
- hd95489 4y ago
  You assume a free market economy that does not exist. Rent is a good example because regulation is driving it small land lords in favor of a few large corporate land lords that collude on rent using common algorithmic models.
  - the_optimist 4y ago
    Similarly, you assume a public sector ability to identify, create, operate, and obsolete services that does not exist.
  - throwaway173738 4y ago
    Mostly the issue with being a small landlord lies in how the landlord-tenant laws are written to treat you like a large corporate landlord. You have the same legal obligation to go through very lengthy eviction processes and to be very verbose about criteria but you can’t amortize the risk of a bad tenant over even tens of units like a corporation can. If you get one bad tenant they can cost you more than you get from them in rent, and they can destroy the rental house before you get to the eviction hearing. I’ve had more than one conversation with my wife about just keeping the house empty instead while we’re gone, but I still think I have a moral obligation to rent to someone if I can.
    - hd95489 4y ago
      I think short term rental lowers that risk by having more renters but none under contract. Air b&b is a terrible thing but also the local maximum for individuals
Glyptodon 4y ago
It's not so much UBI as a supply issue with housing at play regardless of UBI.

ISL 4y ago

If low-end rents double, building housing looks a lot more attractive.

polygamous_bat 4y ago
Except current landlords have local governments in a stranglehold and you can't build any new housing at all.
- sologoub 4y ago
  That’s not the entire picture -Builder’s Remedy apperently is working: “ For example, after Santa Monica failed to pass a compliant housing development plan, developers employed the builder's remedy to move forward with the construction of approximately 4,000 new housing units spread across 12 new development sites.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Builder%27s_remedy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Builder%27s_remedy That’s nearly an 8.8% increase from the current 45,487 units total (including all houses) https://scag.ca.gov/sites/main/files/file-attachments/santa-monica-he-0421.pdf?1620767629 https://scag.ca.gov/sites/main/files/file-attachments/santa-...
  - catiopatio 4y ago
    It’s “working” insofar as it represents a giveaway to value-extracting development interests, nearly all of which seek to grow the permanent renter class. It remains to be seen whether that will reduce housing costs.
    - sologoub 4y ago
      Santa Monica is one of the most desirable areas in greater Los Angeles. I doubt the demand for it is that shallow. However, this helps more people (who are likely well off) to afford it and reduce pressures elsewhere. If your goal is a paid off place to live, SM isn’t the best choice unless you are either high income already or are set to receive a windfall somehow.
Spooky23 4y ago
Low end rents are already really high and subsidies set a price floor. A two bedroom hovel in my city nets about $1200 section 8 voucher. A two bedroom in a nice development in the burbs is about $1300, and includes parking, pool and gym. Landlords are like oil people, it’s all about extractive value. You want to pump the most cash possible with the minimum overhead possible. Building housing gets attractive only when the government subsidizes construction through low rates and rapid tax depreciation. A relative was the lead on development of a $18M hotel. He probably has $750k in. Most of the money is made with accelerated depreciation. The hotel itself is an afterthought, you couldn’t build it without the backend tax subsidy.
analog31 4y ago
From what I've read, low income housing is actually more profitable for landlords.

Dig1t 4y ago

I’ve always thought this same thing about UBI. Like that episode of Futurama where every citizen gets a $300 bill from the government and in the background of the scene right after they announce it, you see the 99 cent store sign being changed to the $299.99 store. https://youtu.be/X_HyY-8dQJA https://youtu.be/X_HyY-8dQJA

lotsofpulp 4y ago
This ignores the effects of increasing marginal income or marginal sales taxes, which can be adjusted to the desired level of wealth redistribution.
- whitemary 4y ago
  Income tax and sales tax are both regressive taxes. In other words, they both promote inequality by favoring the capitalist class.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Marginal income and marginal sales taxes are not regressive, they are progressive.

Nifty3929 4y ago

For your housing example, we just need to produce more housing - but so many people are opposed to it. It's not that the private sector doesn't want to, obviously, they just aren't allowed to. You're making a good argument that we should allow for more housing to be built, but I don't see from your argument why it's better for that to be the government. I can't think of many examples where the government does a better job producing things than the private sector. Even in countries with, for example, socialized medicine, and assuming you think that works well, the services (I think) are still provided by private companies. Maybe the VA Hospitals in the US - though I'm not sure that's an example of the government doing better or not.

whitemary 4y ago
> For your housing example, we just need to produce more housing Existing property capital owners have a vested interest in not building more housing. Building more housing will negatively impact their profits. Existing property capital owners also have far more power than the petty bourgeoise investors seeking to "build more." This conflict of "NIMBYs vs YIMBYs" exemplifies a core contradiction of capitalism that Karl Marx articulated 150 years ago, except "NIMBYs" are not individual homeowners; they are rather the idols of the petty bourgeoise "YIMBYs." See: contradiction. Objectively, the working class has no place in this conflict and will not profit from building more housing. Of course we should build more and better housing for working people, but that is not what the petty bourgeoise investors actually want; they want to build more housing for profit. Big difference.
- dantheman 4y ago
  No they have incentive for others not to build, but for them to build.

ruined 4y ago

"too much material wealth is captured by rent-seeking middlemen controlling access to location" is a problem with your property regime. yeah, by extension, it is a problem with any action you take under that property regime. but don't let that prevent you from talking about what the solutions to problems must be.

sologoub 4y ago

That argument about UBI may be true ceteris paribus (all else being equal), though even then it may not. The assumption seems to be that all other money flows and incomes remain the same and demand grows while supply remains the same. UBI (there are many proposals/variants) would likely require taxes that will make it basically zero beyond a certain level of income and negative further up (increase in tax on upper brackets). UBI will also incentivize some people to stop working and rely on UBI, so net effects won’t be a uniform increase in buying power. Rents are not uniform geographically and area usually related to how desirable a place is and how much work there is in the areas. With UBI consumers can choose to move away from jobs centers.

HPsquared 4y ago
Sounds like a recipe for increase in demand for goods/services, coupled with a simultaneous reduction in productivity. Won't this just make the country as a whole poorer?
- sologoub 4y ago
  This redistribution already happens with progressive income tax brackets and tax refunds that don’t depend on amounts paid in. This is US tax code today. Might as well have a better safety net in case things go south.
- mxkopy 4y ago
  > simultaneous reduction in productivity Hasn't productivity been on the rise the past X years? Shouldn't we have a little slack by this point?
  - specialist 4y ago
    And maybe some profit sharing too.
- wutbrodo 4y ago
  First-order, yes: Redistributive policies don't have the sum of the country's wealth as their primary optimization objective. Arguably, their goal is closer (but not quite) to the sum of national utility, which follows from diminishing marginal utility. That being said, there are also claimed and real second-order effects of policies whose first-order economic effect is deadweight-loss. The entirety of government fits this description! To use the most trite and least controversial example, confiscating resources to build roads is redistribution from heavier taxpayers to heavier road users (incl downstream beneficiaries), but the second-order effects of a functional transportation are enough that we don't consider it to "make the country as a whole poorer"

skeeter2020 4y ago

this is only true if everybody needs the same services, thus everyone uses UBI for the same thing. In the case of rent this would point to a systemic issue for which cash payments is not going to correct it, but there are a lot of varied needs for which UBI far more efficient than a government program addressing it directly.

snapplebobapple 4y ago

I don't think you understand what the word efficient means because what you said about it is certainly untrue. The private sector will almost always deliver a better result as long as you mitigate market power abuse. You are basically saying it is more efficient to deliver services through a public system because said public system failed at mitigating market power. In the rent example a lot of that market power is even self inflicted by said public sector via onerous zoning and permitting regulations that make development only plausible via large, oligopolistic systems.

hd95489 4y ago
You assume a free market economy that does not exist. Rent is a good example because regulation is driving it small land lords in favor of a few large corporate land lords that collude on rent using common algorithmic models.
- the_optimist 4y ago
  Similarly, you assume a public sector ability to identify, create, operate, and obsolete services that does not exist.
- throwaway173738 4y ago
  Mostly the issue with being a small landlord lies in how the landlord-tenant laws are written to treat you like a large corporate landlord. You have the same legal obligation to go through very lengthy eviction processes and to be very verbose about criteria but you can’t amortize the risk of a bad tenant over even tens of units like a corporation can. If you get one bad tenant they can cost you more than you get from them in rent, and they can destroy the rental house before you get to the eviction hearing. I’ve had more than one conversation with my wife about just keeping the house empty instead while we’re gone, but I still think I have a moral obligation to rent to someone if I can.
  - hd95489 4y ago
    I think short term rental lowers that risk by having more renters but none under contract. Air b&b is a terrible thing but also the local maximum for individuals

Glyptodon 4y ago

It's not so much UBI as a supply issue with housing at play regardless of UBI.