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Judging by the comments here, it would be easy to assume most of you are already in favor of war with Russia. Russia is not "the good guy". Neither are we. Any

by 34679 4y ago

Judging by the comments here, it would be easy to assume most of you are already in favor of war with Russia. Russia is not "the good guy". Neither are we. Any action that promotes war between the two is an action that also promotes widespread death and destruction across the entire planet. Maybe down-ranking Ukraine tweets have hushed the war drums to a degree, maybe not. But there is a justification that does not include supporting Russia.

popilewiz 4y ago
It doesn't change the fact that there is already a war going on that is taking tens of thousands of lives. Coverage and awareness is important.
belltaco 4y ago
>Russia is not "the good guy". Neither are we. The standard both sides are the same argument with black and white thinking. No mention of shades of grey or nuance.
ncallaway 4y ago
How could you possibly square that logic with any of Musk’s comments about free speech?
- dotty- 4y ago
  https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1593673339826212864 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1593673339826212864
0xDEF 4y ago
Russia losing its political objectives in Ukraine is not an existential threat to Russia so there is no reason they will escalate to nukes. The Russian political elite are enjoying their luxurious lives in Moscow. Many of their children and grandchildren live in the West. They are not going to destroy the planet just because they will a smaller slice of Ukraine than they had hoped for. It is interesting that "Russia will nuke the whole world" fear mongering is only coming from the people who want Russia to win.
- landemva 4y ago
  > no reason they will escalate to nukes. Putin has shown restraint over past two decades, so he probably won't use nukes. Those who may replace him, real hardliners, may be less restrained.
  - 0xDEF 4y ago
    >Putin has shown restraint over past two decades Ask the people living in Georgia, Ukraine, and occupied Chechnya about how much "restraint" Russia has shown them. >Those who may replace him, real hardliners, may be less restrained. In the context of geopolitics Putin is the hardliner. The other "hardliners" are all puppets that are used to give the illusion of dissent in Russia.
    - vogre 4y ago
      >Ask the people living in Georgia, Ukraine, and occupied Chechnya about how much "restraint" Russia has shown them. Actually people from Chechnya are fighting for Putin now. And the government of Georgia resist attempts to draw it in war with Russia like crazy, so they also appreciate the peace with Russia.
    - mhoad 4y ago
      This isn’t actually true. Here is a recently released report from Estonia’s foreign intelligence service that talks about that among other topics https://raport.valisluureamet.ee/2023/assets/WEB_VLA_ENG-raport_2023.pdf https://raport.valisluureamet.ee/2023/assets/WEB_VLA_ENG-rap...
    - unmole 4y ago
      > occupied Chechnya Interesting framing. Do you also refer to Donetsk and Luhansk under Ukranian authority as Occupied Donbass?
- calderknight 4y ago
  Is it not an existential risk? To allow their enemies to build up strength on their borders has proven to be an existential risk in the past, although obviously they triumphed in the end, albeit at great cost. The worry as I have heard it that Russia may not be willing to accept defeat in the Ukraine and will use nukes in the Ukraine, not USA or Western Europe - which is of course bad enough in itself - and that this might escalate into a global nuclear exchange. Your final point is interesting - I suspect it is a logical artifact. The people who are worried about nuclear war are generally people who want to minimise death; and people who want to minimise death generally prioritise peace; and people who prioritise peace are generally labled as wanting Russia to win, as they would give Russia concessions if it means fewer hundreds-of-thousands of deaths - and anything other than a total victory for Ukraine is said to be a victory for Russia.
therouwboat 4y ago
Do you really think putin is going to stop after he conquers Ukraine?
lloydjones 4y ago
Assuming this isn't trolling/baiting: Ukraine was invaded by its neighbour. Russia started a war. Would you deem tweets that encourage donations toward Ukraine's military defence to be "promoting war"? How about tweets that boost morale of their defence forces (well-produced propaganda videos, etc)? The war isn't something that Ukraine wanted, but it was forced on them. To then demote any tweet about Ukraine is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and (in the examples I've given above) making their digital 'life' harder when trying to deal with a problem they didn't want.
- Izkata 4y ago
  Ukraine and Russia have been willing to go to peace talks a few times, and each time some other country convinces Ukraine not to. The UK and the US are the two I remember reading about.
  - lloydjones 4y ago
    Is that not a massive oversimplification? And is it bad/wrong that a country's leadership can be persuaded by its allies? If they were to enter peace talks based on the premise of ceding territory, would that not strengthen Russia; sending the message that this sort of robbery works and is rewarded? And would that not pose a danger to other neighbours of Russia? I can see why it's in both Ukraine's interest, and its allies, for it to not cede territory. Having said all of this: I am not a military strategist or diplomat, and I don't really know what I'm talking about.
    - foverzar 4y ago
      > And is it bad/wrong that a country's leadership can be persuaded by its allies? Ask Ukrainian men who are forbidden to leave the country and risk getting drafted every day. It's only their health, their limbs and their very lives that would be sacrificed so that Ukraine's "allies" can get a better footing in their next confrontations with Russia.
      - lloydjones 4y ago
kibwen 4y ago
> Any action that promotes war between the two Say it with me: Russia invaded Ukrainian territory. Ukraine does not seek war against Russia, they seek to reclaim the territory that Russia stole. If Russia were to leave tomorrow, the war would be over. There is no way to "promote war between the two" by supporting Ukraine, because the war was caused (and continues to be caused) by the unilateral actions of one party: Russia.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- 34679 4y ago
  How many countries have we bombed and/or sent troops into during the last 20 years? What country do you think should stop us? Wouldn't it be better if the people demanded an end to war instead of being convinced we can bomb our way out of conflict?
  - kibwen 4y ago
    It would be great to demand an end to the war. However, the way to demand an end to the war is to demand that Russia leaves Ukrainian territory. If they will not voluntarily leave Ukrainian territory, then Ukraine will seek to remove them by force. It's unclear what you're trying to say with "how many countries have we bombed". Are you trying to say that the cruel and unjust actions of the US justify the cruel and unjust actions of Russia? I demanded that the US leave Afghanistan for my whole adult life. I now demand that Russia leave Ukraine. Anyone who actually cares about ending the war would be demanding the same. Surely you understand that Ukrainian capitulation would only lead to more war as Russia's inhumane expansion tactics would be validated.

by 34679 4y ago

popilewiz 4y ago

It doesn't change the fact that there is already a war going on that is taking tens of thousands of lives. Coverage and awareness is important.

belltaco 4y ago

>Russia is not "the good guy". Neither are we. The standard both sides are the same argument with black and white thinking. No mention of shades of grey or nuance.

ncallaway 4y ago

How could you possibly square that logic with any of Musk’s comments about free speech?

dotty- 4y ago
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1593673339826212864 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1593673339826212864

0xDEF 4y ago

Russia losing its political objectives in Ukraine is not an existential threat to Russia so there is no reason they will escalate to nukes. The Russian political elite are enjoying their luxurious lives in Moscow. Many of their children and grandchildren live in the West. They are not going to destroy the planet just because they will a smaller slice of Ukraine than they had hoped for. It is interesting that "Russia will nuke the whole world" fear mongering is only coming from the people who want Russia to win.

landemva 4y ago
> no reason they will escalate to nukes. Putin has shown restraint over past two decades, so he probably won't use nukes. Those who may replace him, real hardliners, may be less restrained.
- 0xDEF 4y ago
  >Putin has shown restraint over past two decades Ask the people living in Georgia, Ukraine, and occupied Chechnya about how much "restraint" Russia has shown them. >Those who may replace him, real hardliners, may be less restrained. In the context of geopolitics Putin is the hardliner. The other "hardliners" are all puppets that are used to give the illusion of dissent in Russia.
  - vogre 4y ago
    >Ask the people living in Georgia, Ukraine, and occupied Chechnya about how much "restraint" Russia has shown them. Actually people from Chechnya are fighting for Putin now. And the government of Georgia resist attempts to draw it in war with Russia like crazy, so they also appreciate the peace with Russia.
  - mhoad 4y ago
    This isn’t actually true. Here is a recently released report from Estonia’s foreign intelligence service that talks about that among other topics https://raport.valisluureamet.ee/2023/assets/WEB_VLA_ENG-raport_2023.pdf https://raport.valisluureamet.ee/2023/assets/WEB_VLA_ENG-rap...
  - unmole 4y ago
    > occupied Chechnya Interesting framing. Do you also refer to Donetsk and Luhansk under Ukranian authority as Occupied Donbass?
calderknight 4y ago
Is it not an existential risk? To allow their enemies to build up strength on their borders has proven to be an existential risk in the past, although obviously they triumphed in the end, albeit at great cost. The worry as I have heard it that Russia may not be willing to accept defeat in the Ukraine and will use nukes in the Ukraine, not USA or Western Europe - which is of course bad enough in itself - and that this might escalate into a global nuclear exchange. Your final point is interesting - I suspect it is a logical artifact. The people who are worried about nuclear war are generally people who want to minimise death; and people who want to minimise death generally prioritise peace; and people who prioritise peace are generally labled as wanting Russia to win, as they would give Russia concessions if it means fewer hundreds-of-thousands of deaths - and anything other than a total victory for Ukraine is said to be a victory for Russia.

therouwboat 4y ago

Do you really think putin is going to stop after he conquers Ukraine?

lloydjones 4y ago

Assuming this isn't trolling/baiting: Ukraine was invaded by its neighbour. Russia started a war. Would you deem tweets that encourage donations toward Ukraine's military defence to be "promoting war"? How about tweets that boost morale of their defence forces (well-produced propaganda videos, etc)? The war isn't something that Ukraine wanted, but it was forced on them. To then demote any tweet about Ukraine is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and (in the examples I've given above) making their digital 'life' harder when trying to deal with a problem they didn't want.

Izkata 4y ago
Ukraine and Russia have been willing to go to peace talks a few times, and each time some other country convinces Ukraine not to. The UK and the US are the two I remember reading about.
- lloydjones 4y ago
  Is that not a massive oversimplification? And is it bad/wrong that a country's leadership can be persuaded by its allies? If they were to enter peace talks based on the premise of ceding territory, would that not strengthen Russia; sending the message that this sort of robbery works and is rewarded? And would that not pose a danger to other neighbours of Russia? I can see why it's in both Ukraine's interest, and its allies, for it to not cede territory. Having said all of this: I am not a military strategist or diplomat, and I don't really know what I'm talking about.
  - foverzar 4y ago
    > And is it bad/wrong that a country's leadership can be persuaded by its allies? Ask Ukrainian men who are forbidden to leave the country and risk getting drafted every day. It's only their health, their limbs and their very lives that would be sacrificed so that Ukraine's "allies" can get a better footing in their next confrontations with Russia.
    - lloydjones 4y ago

kibwen 4y ago

> Any action that promotes war between the two Say it with me: Russia invaded Ukrainian territory. Ukraine does not seek war against Russia, they seek to reclaim the territory that Russia stole. If Russia were to leave tomorrow, the war would be over. There is no way to "promote war between the two" by supporting Ukraine, because the war was caused (and continues to be caused) by the unilateral actions of one party: Russia.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
34679 4y ago
How many countries have we bombed and/or sent troops into during the last 20 years? What country do you think should stop us? Wouldn't it be better if the people demanded an end to war instead of being convinced we can bomb our way out of conflict?
- kibwen 4y ago
  It would be great to demand an end to the war. However, the way to demand an end to the war is to demand that Russia leaves Ukrainian territory. If they will not voluntarily leave Ukrainian territory, then Ukraine will seek to remove them by force. It's unclear what you're trying to say with "how many countries have we bombed". Are you trying to say that the cruel and unjust actions of the US justify the cruel and unjust actions of Russia? I demanded that the US leave Afghanistan for my whole adult life. I now demand that Russia leave Ukraine. Anyone who actually cares about ending the war would be demanding the same. Surely you understand that Ukrainian capitulation would only lead to more war as Russia's inhumane expansion tactics would be validated.