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Glad to see this getting talked about. The real meaningful wealth gap in our society is between the HN poster income bracket and the poor, not the one between

Glad to see this getting talked about. The real meaningful wealth gap in our society is between the HN poster income bracket and the poor, not the one between HN poster income bracket and the billionaires. But the latter seems to get all the attention. Can't imagine why.

steveBK123 4y ago
Yes. It allows everyone of high education to lean into the fallacy that all our problems would be solved "if we just taxed the billionaires more". In reality, the sheer number of middle/upper middle/upper income and the tax revenue needed for a EU style social welfare would require an increase across a much broader tax base. So tax the billionaires more too, but we aren't getting a lot more government service from that alone.
- EricDeb 4y ago
  It's not just about government services. Wealth = power and speech in America and reducing that to any one, unelected person is another benefit of reducing wealth inequality.
- fallingknife 4y ago
  Exactly. All social democratic welfare states, by necessity, place massive tax burdens on the middle class. e.g. Germany hits 42% marginal rate at around $60K income, and on top of that there's a 19% VAT.
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    Yes the average middle to upper class American underestimates how undertaxed they are for the services they claim to want. $60k American income person pays marginal income tax of 12% or 22% depending on single or married. And sales tax probably 7%. Even if they live in a high tax state, add another 6% income tax maybe.
    - medvezhenok 4y ago
      It's meaningless to discuss tax in isolation, you have to discuss it holistically. Saudi Arabia, for example, could have a tax rate of 0% and still provide for all of their citizens because of the oil they are sitting on. USA has some similar advantages in resources and arable land which Europe lacks. So comparing like for like tax rates makes no sense. Or things like conscription, for example, allows the Government the power to spend arbitrarily, since they can set whatever wage they want for the conscripted citizens, in theory (thereby controlling their own cost). This may not show up in nominal numbers (since they're reporting a cost that they themselves set) - for example, see USSR in WWII. If reported in nominal income, the cost of the war would have been 3x as large as normally reported.
sangnoir 4y ago
> The real meaningful wealth gap in our society is between the HN poster income bracket and the poor, not the one between HN poster income bracket and the billionaires. This is billionaire propaganda[1] to get the middle class to fight thier class war - it is a class war against the poor and middle class . The tax rate of the ultra-rich are at an all time low 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM shows the gap between people (like you) think the wealth distribution is vs the reality. It was made 10 years ago and has gotten further skewed since then. Start from to 2:40 if you're in a hurry.
- fallingknife 4y ago
  My salary is 240k. This is enough to afford me so much luxury as to render any complaints about people having more than me laughable. This is why the upward wealth gap from the upper middle class is not meaningful and the gap below is.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    Congratulations, but what does your income level have to do with your opinion/advocacy - or lack thereof - for changing the status quo? Even billionaires like Buffet are saying things are not right on billionaire taxation, how much more laughable are their "complaints"?
    - fallingknife 4y ago
      I don't hear them complaining, though. But I do hear people making the same money I do. I mean like non stop woe is me can't afford blah blah blah, billionaires have so much more than me upper middle class (lol at the "middle" part) whine. It's all just envy.
    - megaman821 4y ago
      I pretty sure what he is saying the the gap upwards is near meaningless. If you drive a Civic or a Ferrari, you still arrive to your destination in about the same amount of time. If you can't afford a car and have to take a bus it takes you 2-4x as long. There is utility in owning a car and almost no further utility in owning a luxury car. Same for moderate-sized house vs mansion. Southwest vs a private jet. Walmart clothes vs designer. The US has one of the most progressive tax systems. What Buffet is pointing out that at the .1 level it plateaus out (even falls in some cases) when it should still be going up.
boeingUH60 4y ago
I think it’s because people like offloading blame to an out group, so in this case, the middle and upper class blame the ultra-rich. My afar observation is that most Americans that supposedly support an European-style welfare state are not ready to pay the required taxes to fund it. For some reason, they want a strong welfare state with their current tax burden, ala, hypocrisy. Note: This does not mean the ultra-rich won’t pay high taxes too, but taxing them alone won’t fund a strong welfare state.

steveBK123 4y ago

Yes. It allows everyone of high education to lean into the fallacy that all our problems would be solved "if we just taxed the billionaires more". In reality, the sheer number of middle/upper middle/upper income and the tax revenue needed for a EU style social welfare would require an increase across a much broader tax base. So tax the billionaires more too, but we aren't getting a lot more government service from that alone.

EricDeb 4y ago
It's not just about government services. Wealth = power and speech in America and reducing that to any one, unelected person is another benefit of reducing wealth inequality.
fallingknife 4y ago
Exactly. All social democratic welfare states, by necessity, place massive tax burdens on the middle class. e.g. Germany hits 42% marginal rate at around $60K income, and on top of that there's a 19% VAT.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Yes the average middle to upper class American underestimates how undertaxed they are for the services they claim to want. $60k American income person pays marginal income tax of 12% or 22% depending on single or married. And sales tax probably 7%. Even if they live in a high tax state, add another 6% income tax maybe.
  - medvezhenok 4y ago
    It's meaningless to discuss tax in isolation, you have to discuss it holistically. Saudi Arabia, for example, could have a tax rate of 0% and still provide for all of their citizens because of the oil they are sitting on. USA has some similar advantages in resources and arable land which Europe lacks. So comparing like for like tax rates makes no sense. Or things like conscription, for example, allows the Government the power to spend arbitrarily, since they can set whatever wage they want for the conscripted citizens, in theory (thereby controlling their own cost). This may not show up in nominal numbers (since they're reporting a cost that they themselves set) - for example, see USSR in WWII. If reported in nominal income, the cost of the war would have been 3x as large as normally reported.

sangnoir 4y ago

> The real meaningful wealth gap in our society is between the HN poster income bracket and the poor, not the one between HN poster income bracket and the billionaires. This is billionaire propaganda[1] to get the middle class to fight thier class war - it is a class war against the poor and middle class . The tax rate of the ultra-rich are at an all time low 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM shows the gap between people (like you) think the wealth distribution is vs the reality. It was made 10 years ago and has gotten further skewed since then. Start from to 2:40 if you're in a hurry.

fallingknife 4y ago
My salary is 240k. This is enough to afford me so much luxury as to render any complaints about people having more than me laughable. This is why the upward wealth gap from the upper middle class is not meaningful and the gap below is.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  Congratulations, but what does your income level have to do with your opinion/advocacy - or lack thereof - for changing the status quo? Even billionaires like Buffet are saying things are not right on billionaire taxation, how much more laughable are their "complaints"?
  - fallingknife 4y ago
    I don't hear them complaining, though. But I do hear people making the same money I do. I mean like non stop woe is me can't afford blah blah blah, billionaires have so much more than me upper middle class (lol at the "middle" part) whine. It's all just envy.
  - megaman821 4y ago
    I pretty sure what he is saying the the gap upwards is near meaningless. If you drive a Civic or a Ferrari, you still arrive to your destination in about the same amount of time. If you can't afford a car and have to take a bus it takes you 2-4x as long. There is utility in owning a car and almost no further utility in owning a luxury car. Same for moderate-sized house vs mansion. Southwest vs a private jet. Walmart clothes vs designer. The US has one of the most progressive tax systems. What Buffet is pointing out that at the .1 level it plateaus out (even falls in some cases) when it should still be going up.

boeingUH60 4y ago

I think it’s because people like offloading blame to an out group, so in this case, the middle and upper class blame the ultra-rich. My afar observation is that most Americans that supposedly support an European-style welfare state are not ready to pay the required taxes to fund it. For some reason, they want a strong welfare state with their current tax burden, ala, hypocrisy. Note: This does not mean the ultra-rich won’t pay high taxes too, but taxing them alone won’t fund a strong welfare state.