4 ms·

I've learned to be super careful about what senior people say about other senior people. Because it actually reflects well on you to say nice things about alrea

I've learned to be super careful about what senior people say about other senior people. Because it actually reflects well on you to say nice things about already respected people, it's a free PR boost. It makes them sound generous and also knowledgeable. But, I've seen this happen a lot in big companies, someone will say "Well X is a fantastic engineer" or "X does great work" and my first thought is "Well that's interesting, since you have literally never worked with him, seen anything he's produced and have no engineering knowledge". So actually, whilst it sounds like a good endorsement, what is actually happening is that the person is playing politics. This is especially true when talking about public figures - Sam Altman in his recent interviews has been incredibly diplomatic about Elon, despite the fact that it's pretty public knowledge Elon tried to take over OpenAI and now loudly disparages it. Sam is playing politics, and you have to take that into consideration when thinking about these endorsements. Andrej Karpathy wants to have a good career in Silicon Valley and the way to do that is to gush about how fantastic Elon Musk is.... whilst quietly quitting the company having not delivered what he was working on.

Yoric 4y ago
My experience, too. As a younger self, when I heard a C-ranked executive talk about X who's a "fantastic engineer", I assumed that I'd have to work hard to reach their level, without realizing that they may actually not have a clue. Now, when I hear a C-ranked executive talk about X who's a "fantastic engineer", I realize it's just name-dropping.
- zamnos 4y ago
  I am sure that's true for some, but I doubt that's true when a Google exec talks about, eg, Jeff Dean being an absolutely fantastic engineer. Now Jeff Dean being, well, Jeff Dean is one thing, but I'm sure there are engineers at Google who the outside world has never heard of that have done fantastic work internally.
  - Yoric 4y ago
    Quite possible. But, barring any information, my default assumption is now that it's name-dropping.
mlindner 4y ago
> This is especially true when talking about public figures - Sam Altman in his recent interviews has been incredibly diplomatic about Elon, despite the fact that it's pretty public knowledge Elon tried to take over OpenAI and now loudly disparages it. OpenAI was co-founded by Altman and Musk together at the same time, with a huge amount of Musk's money, without which it would've never gotten off the ground in the first place. Also please give a citation for this "public knowledge". I'd counter that it's instead pretty public knowledge that OpenAI basically stole Elon's money on a promise of making an AI company that wouldn't lock things behind proprietary walls, but now has turned out to be the complete opposite. Sam Altman pulled a fast one on Musk and then pushed him out of the company.
- SilverBirch 4y ago
  Here's the reporting on the takeover attempt[1], it also mentions he didn't provide anything like the amount of funding that was initially expected. Sam has been quite open about what is going on with OpenAI - namely that what they needed to develop the tech was billions of dollars, and the only way they would get that money is a private venture, which they've negotiated with terms that actually limit the upside with profits beyond a certain point returning to the non-profit entity, as well as the issues with dumping potentially dangerous tech straight into the public domain. Also, OpenAI was never a partnership between just Musk and Altman, there were half a dozen other people involved including Thiel and Reid Hoffman, there is no way that Altman unilaterally pushed Musk out. It looks a lot more like Musk wanted to be in charge, and doesn't like that OpenAI ended up succeeding without him. [1]:https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/24/23654701/openai-elon-musk-failed-takeover-report-closed-open-source https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/24/23654701/openai-elon-musk...
  - mlindner 4y ago
    Do you have a source that's not the Verge? I've learned to not trust them for anything Musk related as they have a history of incorrect and biased reporting. > it also mentions he didn't provide anything like the amount of funding that was initially expected Elon provided $100M, were they expecting more than that? That's quite a lot of money for an early company. > Also, OpenAI was never a partnership between just Musk and Altman, there were half a dozen other people involved including Thiel and Reid Hoffman, there is no way that Altman unilaterally pushed Musk out. It looks a lot more like Musk wanted to be in charge, and doesn't like that OpenAI ended up succeeding without him. It doesn't surprise me that Elon wanted to be in control, given that they started to go against the joint vision established by Sam and Elon from the get go. You mention it was "half a dozen other people", but it was Elon and Sam that were the public leaders for the vision of the company.
nebula8804 4y ago
I don't know man. What breaks that argument is that multiple people make the same positive claims about Elon: That he can handle unimaginable amounts of stress that would break others, that he seems to have a breath of deep knowledge in various different engineering disciplines and that he is committed to his vision. Your theory would make more sense if everyone was making up random praise about him but the interviews with the three people I mentioned were conducted years apart and weirdly all mention these same praises. Its possible that there is some coordination going on but across so many people from his different companies? There must be some sort of truth to the statements.
- abudabi123 4y ago
  Elon M fried his braincells over at Tesla in an unwinnable situation which was saved by angel investors at the last moment. From that point in time to the present compare the advanced chips made at Tesla to Ford, GM for proof of Elon M and the vision thing. The Elon M companies fit together to tell a story that feels futuristic.
  - cma 4y ago
    GM's Cruise, though it was an acquisition, feels more futuristic than FSD. They are operating driverless.
- michaelt 4y ago
  > the interviews with the three people I mentioned were conducted years apart and weirdly all mention these same praises Or it means they had little enough good to say about him that they had to google it.
Glawen 4y ago
I work in a industry with around 1000 engineers in that field in my location. There must be like 10 big companies where I can work in the area. Basically everyone knows each other and when you interview someone, it's easy to get the person's reputation. I just got a new guy in January (didn't do the interview myself, I was away), I know his ex boss very well and of course I phoned him to know how he's like. He depicted me a kind of bad picture of him. After 3 months I agree that he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But unlike my friend, I'm not asking for perfect code, I'm asking for throughput and bold moves in the wilderness. With that consideration, the guy is actually ok compared to others! I've come to learn to not rely a lot on outside advice on people, and I prefer to judge it myself in situ. The team, the company, the project or simply personal life can greatly affect someone's performances, and it is not because someone is great at company A that he will be great at company B.
- r00fus 4y ago
  This is exactly why I hate term “A-player”. There’s so much of the team and work culture that impacts someone’s capabilities.

Yoric 4y ago

My experience, too. As a younger self, when I heard a C-ranked executive talk about X who's a "fantastic engineer", I assumed that I'd have to work hard to reach their level, without realizing that they may actually not have a clue. Now, when I hear a C-ranked executive talk about X who's a "fantastic engineer", I realize it's just name-dropping.

zamnos 4y ago
I am sure that's true for some, but I doubt that's true when a Google exec talks about, eg, Jeff Dean being an absolutely fantastic engineer. Now Jeff Dean being, well, Jeff Dean is one thing, but I'm sure there are engineers at Google who the outside world has never heard of that have done fantastic work internally.
- Yoric 4y ago
  Quite possible. But, barring any information, my default assumption is now that it's name-dropping.

mlindner 4y ago

> This is especially true when talking about public figures - Sam Altman in his recent interviews has been incredibly diplomatic about Elon, despite the fact that it's pretty public knowledge Elon tried to take over OpenAI and now loudly disparages it. OpenAI was co-founded by Altman and Musk together at the same time, with a huge amount of Musk's money, without which it would've never gotten off the ground in the first place. Also please give a citation for this "public knowledge". I'd counter that it's instead pretty public knowledge that OpenAI basically stole Elon's money on a promise of making an AI company that wouldn't lock things behind proprietary walls, but now has turned out to be the complete opposite. Sam Altman pulled a fast one on Musk and then pushed him out of the company.

SilverBirch 4y ago
Here's the reporting on the takeover attempt[1], it also mentions he didn't provide anything like the amount of funding that was initially expected. Sam has been quite open about what is going on with OpenAI - namely that what they needed to develop the tech was billions of dollars, and the only way they would get that money is a private venture, which they've negotiated with terms that actually limit the upside with profits beyond a certain point returning to the non-profit entity, as well as the issues with dumping potentially dangerous tech straight into the public domain. Also, OpenAI was never a partnership between just Musk and Altman, there were half a dozen other people involved including Thiel and Reid Hoffman, there is no way that Altman unilaterally pushed Musk out. It looks a lot more like Musk wanted to be in charge, and doesn't like that OpenAI ended up succeeding without him. [1]:https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/24/23654701/openai-elon-musk-failed-takeover-report-closed-open-source https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/24/23654701/openai-elon-musk...
- mlindner 4y ago
  Do you have a source that's not the Verge? I've learned to not trust them for anything Musk related as they have a history of incorrect and biased reporting. > it also mentions he didn't provide anything like the amount of funding that was initially expected Elon provided $100M, were they expecting more than that? That's quite a lot of money for an early company. > Also, OpenAI was never a partnership between just Musk and Altman, there were half a dozen other people involved including Thiel and Reid Hoffman, there is no way that Altman unilaterally pushed Musk out. It looks a lot more like Musk wanted to be in charge, and doesn't like that OpenAI ended up succeeding without him. It doesn't surprise me that Elon wanted to be in control, given that they started to go against the joint vision established by Sam and Elon from the get go. You mention it was "half a dozen other people", but it was Elon and Sam that were the public leaders for the vision of the company.

nebula8804 4y ago

I don't know man. What breaks that argument is that multiple people make the same positive claims about Elon: That he can handle unimaginable amounts of stress that would break others, that he seems to have a breath of deep knowledge in various different engineering disciplines and that he is committed to his vision. Your theory would make more sense if everyone was making up random praise about him but the interviews with the three people I mentioned were conducted years apart and weirdly all mention these same praises. Its possible that there is some coordination going on but across so many people from his different companies? There must be some sort of truth to the statements.

abudabi123 4y ago
Elon M fried his braincells over at Tesla in an unwinnable situation which was saved by angel investors at the last moment. From that point in time to the present compare the advanced chips made at Tesla to Ford, GM for proof of Elon M and the vision thing. The Elon M companies fit together to tell a story that feels futuristic.
- cma 4y ago
  GM's Cruise, though it was an acquisition, feels more futuristic than FSD. They are operating driverless.
michaelt 4y ago
> the interviews with the three people I mentioned were conducted years apart and weirdly all mention these same praises Or it means they had little enough good to say about him that they had to google it.

Glawen 4y ago

I work in a industry with around 1000 engineers in that field in my location. There must be like 10 big companies where I can work in the area. Basically everyone knows each other and when you interview someone, it's easy to get the person's reputation. I just got a new guy in January (didn't do the interview myself, I was away), I know his ex boss very well and of course I phoned him to know how he's like. He depicted me a kind of bad picture of him. After 3 months I agree that he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But unlike my friend, I'm not asking for perfect code, I'm asking for throughput and bold moves in the wilderness. With that consideration, the guy is actually ok compared to others! I've come to learn to not rely a lot on outside advice on people, and I prefer to judge it myself in situ. The team, the company, the project or simply personal life can greatly affect someone's performances, and it is not because someone is great at company A that he will be great at company B.

r00fus 4y ago
This is exactly why I hate term “A-player”. There’s so much of the team and work culture that impacts someone’s capabilities.