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In Sweden if you move from Stockholm to Eskilstuna (1h30m drive away) you can find a 5 room 100 sqm apartment in the dead center of the town for the price of a

In Sweden if you move from Stockholm to Eskilstuna (1h30m drive away) you can find a 5 room 100 sqm apartment in the dead center of the town for the price of a 2 room 45-50 sqm apartment in any of the immediate suburbs of Stockholm. Or, to put it simply, move out of the big city, and the prices drop by a factor of two or more.

luckylion 4y ago
That's true in Germany as well, but to get cheap property, you have to go very far from the city, and Germany not being that huge, you'll be close to the next metro area by then. Like, sure, a 120sqm house might be 400k in Hamburg and only 230k 60 minutes out to the north west (both needing an additional 25-50% of price in renovation costs), but the average net income is 30k/year and you're expected to have at least 20% in cash. You can get very cheap houses in Saxony or Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, but there will be little to no infrastructure (like, the next gynaecologist might be a 60 minute car trip away), your neighbors will be down on their luck, unemployed and voting far right, and you'll essentially need to rebuild the house - and you'll need to do much of it yourself because the tradesmen work on construction sites in the big cities and rarely take local jobs.
- ido 4y ago
  We've been living in Berlin for the last 10 year and the prices are making me consider looking outside the city (no other big cities that near Berlin, so there isn't that challenge you speak of). My main issue would be being more socially isolated as all of our local friends are in Berlin, kids having to adapt to new school/kindergarten (& find new friends), new work for my wife who doesn't work remote (but can find work relatively easily)...It's not impossible but it really sucks that we'd have to leave the city if we want a slightly bigger home (we've 2 kids who share a room & our apartment is in general feeling a bit small for a family of 4). Without a large windfall I don't think we'll ever be able to afford buying a 3+ bedroom (4+ rooms as Germans count it) home in Berlin & rent would be high enough that no landlord will want us with our current income.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Yeah, doing it with kids is extra hard. I have friends in Berlin who moved to Prenzlauer Berg in like 2005 and got a great deal. At some point, with kids that apartment just didn't cut it any more, but they can't move too far for the reasons you mention, so they looked long and hard and accepted paying quite a bit more and moving to the other side of the Ring in Pankow. Not as nice, but close enough to keep the kids in the same schools. I had hoped that remote work would relieve some of that pressure, but maybe it'll take a generation because many couples can't move anywhere because only one of them can work remotely, or because they don't want to uproot their kids. Not to mention that you'll still need a solid internet connection to work remotely, and that's still hit and miss if you go more rural. And if nobody wants to move to Saxony, the empty villages there don't really do anything on the supply side.
    - ido 4y ago
      I have many friends in Brandenburg (the state, not the city) and internet speeds tend to actually be great out there from what Ive heard (still in the towns/cities not literally in the middle of nowhere, but there are loads of small to mid sized towns). In fact I believe it may be better than in Berlin! I wonder if it was because it was easier to upgrade/replace the East German infrastructure & as such it's relatively new/good? Sorta like how nice a lot of the highway network in Poland is, because it was mostly only built in the last couple decades. BTW Pankow is considered a very nice and desirable (and expensive) part of Berlin to raise a family in :)
      - luckylion 4y ago
        I guess Pankow is also pretty large. The parts I stayed at had mostly wide streets with lots of traffic, but it includes Prenzlauer Berg and goes all the way to the north, so it'll have plenty of different places. And gentrification likely changes it as well. You're right about small towns, they're probably a good compromise before looking at villages, but it is a very different life style, so probably not for everyone that currently lives in Berlin or Hamburg by choice. I'm curious how it will develop, and I feel fortunate that my personal preferences align with what's cheaper. I feel for those who desire the hustle and bustle of the inner city.
rcarr 4y ago
This is all well and good but are there jobs there that match the persons skillset or would they have to spend most likely 3-6 years retraining?
- illiarian 4y ago
  The question above was "I work remotely and may consider moving there." When you work remotely you may want to move anywhere you want. However, there are other things to consider: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35408256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35408256 :)
  - rcarr 4y ago
    I missed that, sometimes the threads get long on here!

luckylion 4y ago

That's true in Germany as well, but to get cheap property, you have to go very far from the city, and Germany not being that huge, you'll be close to the next metro area by then. Like, sure, a 120sqm house might be 400k in Hamburg and only 230k 60 minutes out to the north west (both needing an additional 25-50% of price in renovation costs), but the average net income is 30k/year and you're expected to have at least 20% in cash. You can get very cheap houses in Saxony or Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, but there will be little to no infrastructure (like, the next gynaecologist might be a 60 minute car trip away), your neighbors will be down on their luck, unemployed and voting far right, and you'll essentially need to rebuild the house - and you'll need to do much of it yourself because the tradesmen work on construction sites in the big cities and rarely take local jobs.

ido 4y ago
We've been living in Berlin for the last 10 year and the prices are making me consider looking outside the city (no other big cities that near Berlin, so there isn't that challenge you speak of). My main issue would be being more socially isolated as all of our local friends are in Berlin, kids having to adapt to new school/kindergarten (& find new friends), new work for my wife who doesn't work remote (but can find work relatively easily)...It's not impossible but it really sucks that we'd have to leave the city if we want a slightly bigger home (we've 2 kids who share a room & our apartment is in general feeling a bit small for a family of 4). Without a large windfall I don't think we'll ever be able to afford buying a 3+ bedroom (4+ rooms as Germans count it) home in Berlin & rent would be high enough that no landlord will want us with our current income.
- luckylion 4y ago
  Yeah, doing it with kids is extra hard. I have friends in Berlin who moved to Prenzlauer Berg in like 2005 and got a great deal. At some point, with kids that apartment just didn't cut it any more, but they can't move too far for the reasons you mention, so they looked long and hard and accepted paying quite a bit more and moving to the other side of the Ring in Pankow. Not as nice, but close enough to keep the kids in the same schools. I had hoped that remote work would relieve some of that pressure, but maybe it'll take a generation because many couples can't move anywhere because only one of them can work remotely, or because they don't want to uproot their kids. Not to mention that you'll still need a solid internet connection to work remotely, and that's still hit and miss if you go more rural. And if nobody wants to move to Saxony, the empty villages there don't really do anything on the supply side.
  - ido 4y ago
    I have many friends in Brandenburg (the state, not the city) and internet speeds tend to actually be great out there from what Ive heard (still in the towns/cities not literally in the middle of nowhere, but there are loads of small to mid sized towns). In fact I believe it may be better than in Berlin! I wonder if it was because it was easier to upgrade/replace the East German infrastructure & as such it's relatively new/good? Sorta like how nice a lot of the highway network in Poland is, because it was mostly only built in the last couple decades. BTW Pankow is considered a very nice and desirable (and expensive) part of Berlin to raise a family in :)
    - luckylion 4y ago
      I guess Pankow is also pretty large. The parts I stayed at had mostly wide streets with lots of traffic, but it includes Prenzlauer Berg and goes all the way to the north, so it'll have plenty of different places. And gentrification likely changes it as well. You're right about small towns, they're probably a good compromise before looking at villages, but it is a very different life style, so probably not for everyone that currently lives in Berlin or Hamburg by choice. I'm curious how it will develop, and I feel fortunate that my personal preferences align with what's cheaper. I feel for those who desire the hustle and bustle of the inner city.

rcarr 4y ago

This is all well and good but are there jobs there that match the persons skillset or would they have to spend most likely 3-6 years retraining?

illiarian 4y ago
The question above was "I work remotely and may consider moving there." When you work remotely you may want to move anywhere you want. However, there are other things to consider: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35408256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35408256 :)
- rcarr 4y ago
  I missed that, sometimes the threads get long on here!