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Except in the Netherlands, where urbanization is actually losing from agriculture. We have a structural housing shortage while 54% of this tiny land's surface i

by bojan 4y ago

Except in the Netherlands, where urbanization is actually losing from agriculture. We have a structural housing shortage while 54% of this tiny land's surface is used for agriculture, and then mostly for those disastrous monocultures. Dutch farmers are probably the most privileged group in the country and they are fighting tooth and nail to preserve that status no matter the cost. Anything they say or complain about should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

spiderfarmer 4y ago
It sounds so arrogant to say farmers are privileged, while these families have worked for generations to build these farms. There are even people advocating to take the farms from them, if necessary by force. I don’t blame the farmers if they want to hold on to every inch, and to fight for every right they still have.
- tonyg 4y ago
  No one "worked for generations". We each get one lifetime, that's it.
  - spiderfarmer 4y ago
    My emotion don’t care about your prdantry. I worked on a farm together with my father and grandfather. My grandfather’s grandfather started it as a dirt poor peat digger who lived in a peat house and worked till the day he died. Say what you will about my brothers farm, but I will physically stop anyone trying to it from him. He does a great job producing quality products with minimal emissions, while maintaining the great landscape and animals around him. If you want the destroy all that in favor of datacenters, you’re the problem, not him.
- bojan 4y ago
  That dubious take, even if true, doesn't give them the right to destroy nature of the entire country. Among other things, their influence on the water management policy has an effect of private homes literally sinking in certain parts of the country.
  - spiderfarmer 4y ago
    They don’t destroy nature any more than cities and datacenters do. We just picked the wrong species to protect.
- rr842j 4y ago
  They are not taking the farms from them, they are buying them. Agro-industry in the Netherlands is unsustainable and all the parties involved know it. Whatever they say, what we're watching here is just the buyout negotiations.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - spiderfarmer 4y ago
    Buying them, while preventing they start over elsewhere. And also, all savings in emissions are used to expand emissions in other industries. That doesn’t sound fair, and isn’t.
    - rr842j 4y ago
      First of all your claim that all savings in emissions are used to expand emissions in other industries needs a reference, but even if this claim were true, one could easily argue that more people on the Netherlands would benefit (for example) from affordable housing, than from exporting powdered milk or greenhouse tomatoes
      - spiderfarmer 4y ago
        Check https://www.ammoniakrechten.nl https://www.ammoniakrechten.nl Also, farmers don’t have to disappear for more housing. It seems the government does a great job pitting a lot of its citizens against farmers by lying that they are holding back new housing development, while the real issue is a lack of builders, too stringent guidelines and a lack of building materials.
- drewcoo 4y ago
  Inheriting a farm is privilege.
  - spiderfarmer 4y ago
    Yes it was a real privilege to see my parents struggle financially, without enjoying things that are commonplace in other families, like ‘free weekends’ and ‘holidays’. All so they could make the investments that were necessary to keep the farm afloat. There was no glamour. They weren’t “millionaires” with the accompanying lifestyle. And it’s not like you magically inherit a million dollar farm either. You saw the suffering that went into it from the day you were born. That has a cost and takes a toll. It just comes with a lot of responsibility and I don’t think you should envy that. They spent their whole life working that job, not just 5 days a week from 9 to 5 and the kids started helping as soon as they were able to. Like 5 years old. They did enjoy it, because it’s honest work. But they didn’t get to reap the rewards like they would have gotten in other companies. Saying that any result of hard work is a privilege with a negative connotation makes me puke. You know literally nothing about this life. And you should stop commenting on it.
- 28304283409234 4y ago
  No, it sounds arrogant and privileged to make it sound as if only farmers have worked hard for generations. We all have.
  - spiderfarmer 4y ago
    Saying you worked hard has nothing to do with privilege. You’re repeating some of the words you heard elsewhere out of context. And unlike you, farming families invested almost everything they made back into the farm, for their children, in order to see it continue. And the children (like me) who don’t continue on that farm all have to agree that a large part of their inheritance is gifted to the brother or sister who does. That’s something you only see in well run family companies. The entire family wants to see it succeed. That’s one reason why the BBB got a lot more votes anyone expected. Nearly everyone in NL is related to a farming family and they have gathered a lot of sympathy because arrogant unsympathetic politicians and citydwellers are bashing their heritage and preying on their land.
    - 28304283409234 4y ago
      > You’re repeating some of the words you heard elsewhere out of context. That is quite an arrogant claim, sir. You know not me, nor which words or contexts I consumed.
      - spiderfarmer 4y ago
        You certainly addressed the substance of my comment here.
        28304283409234 4y ago
        You made assumptions and accusations about me ("Unlike you, ...") that I see no point in honoring that with any further comment.
- stev-0 4y ago
  > There are even people advocating to take the farms from them. That’s the only option left on the table if they won’t shrink the livestock and diversify as farmers. Let’s be real: it’s not like this legislation came out of the blue. Nitrogen deposition as a problem is something the sector has known about for a while. Instead of diversifying away from nitrogen emission these companies chose to double down on nitrogen washing technology. Turns out that technology doesn’t work. Intensive livestock in the way it’s happening now doesn’t have a future in the Netherlands. I’d like to go even further and say that it makes a poor investment anywhere in the world. Farmers are entrepreneurs. Being an entrepreneur means managing risks and they did that pretty poorly as a sector. A lot of farmers invited the risk and harvested its profits. Had they diversified they would have been in much better shape. You can’t eat your cake and have it..

by bojan 4y ago

spiderfarmer 4y ago

It sounds so arrogant to say farmers are privileged, while these families have worked for generations to build these farms. There are even people advocating to take the farms from them, if necessary by force. I don’t blame the farmers if they want to hold on to every inch, and to fight for every right they still have.

tonyg 4y ago
No one "worked for generations". We each get one lifetime, that's it.
- spiderfarmer 4y ago
  My emotion don’t care about your prdantry. I worked on a farm together with my father and grandfather. My grandfather’s grandfather started it as a dirt poor peat digger who lived in a peat house and worked till the day he died. Say what you will about my brothers farm, but I will physically stop anyone trying to it from him. He does a great job producing quality products with minimal emissions, while maintaining the great landscape and animals around him. If you want the destroy all that in favor of datacenters, you’re the problem, not him.
bojan 4y ago
That dubious take, even if true, doesn't give them the right to destroy nature of the entire country. Among other things, their influence on the water management policy has an effect of private homes literally sinking in certain parts of the country.
- spiderfarmer 4y ago
  They don’t destroy nature any more than cities and datacenters do. We just picked the wrong species to protect.
rr842j 4y ago
They are not taking the farms from them, they are buying them. Agro-industry in the Netherlands is unsustainable and all the parties involved know it. Whatever they say, what we're watching here is just the buyout negotiations.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- spiderfarmer 4y ago
  Buying them, while preventing they start over elsewhere. And also, all savings in emissions are used to expand emissions in other industries. That doesn’t sound fair, and isn’t.
  - rr842j 4y ago
    First of all your claim that all savings in emissions are used to expand emissions in other industries needs a reference, but even if this claim were true, one could easily argue that more people on the Netherlands would benefit (for example) from affordable housing, than from exporting powdered milk or greenhouse tomatoes
    - spiderfarmer 4y ago
      Check https://www.ammoniakrechten.nl https://www.ammoniakrechten.nl Also, farmers don’t have to disappear for more housing. It seems the government does a great job pitting a lot of its citizens against farmers by lying that they are holding back new housing development, while the real issue is a lack of builders, too stringent guidelines and a lack of building materials.
drewcoo 4y ago
Inheriting a farm is privilege.
- spiderfarmer 4y ago
  Yes it was a real privilege to see my parents struggle financially, without enjoying things that are commonplace in other families, like ‘free weekends’ and ‘holidays’. All so they could make the investments that were necessary to keep the farm afloat. There was no glamour. They weren’t “millionaires” with the accompanying lifestyle. And it’s not like you magically inherit a million dollar farm either. You saw the suffering that went into it from the day you were born. That has a cost and takes a toll. It just comes with a lot of responsibility and I don’t think you should envy that. They spent their whole life working that job, not just 5 days a week from 9 to 5 and the kids started helping as soon as they were able to. Like 5 years old. They did enjoy it, because it’s honest work. But they didn’t get to reap the rewards like they would have gotten in other companies. Saying that any result of hard work is a privilege with a negative connotation makes me puke. You know literally nothing about this life. And you should stop commenting on it.
28304283409234 4y ago
No, it sounds arrogant and privileged to make it sound as if only farmers have worked hard for generations. We all have.
- spiderfarmer 4y ago
  Saying you worked hard has nothing to do with privilege. You’re repeating some of the words you heard elsewhere out of context. And unlike you, farming families invested almost everything they made back into the farm, for their children, in order to see it continue. And the children (like me) who don’t continue on that farm all have to agree that a large part of their inheritance is gifted to the brother or sister who does. That’s something you only see in well run family companies. The entire family wants to see it succeed. That’s one reason why the BBB got a lot more votes anyone expected. Nearly everyone in NL is related to a farming family and they have gathered a lot of sympathy because arrogant unsympathetic politicians and citydwellers are bashing their heritage and preying on their land.
  - 28304283409234 4y ago
    > You’re repeating some of the words you heard elsewhere out of context. That is quite an arrogant claim, sir. You know not me, nor which words or contexts I consumed.
    - spiderfarmer 4y ago
      You certainly addressed the substance of my comment here.
      - 28304283409234 4y ago
        You made assumptions and accusations about me ("Unlike you, ...") that I see no point in honoring that with any further comment.
stev-0 4y ago
> There are even people advocating to take the farms from them. That’s the only option left on the table if they won’t shrink the livestock and diversify as farmers. Let’s be real: it’s not like this legislation came out of the blue. Nitrogen deposition as a problem is something the sector has known about for a while. Instead of diversifying away from nitrogen emission these companies chose to double down on nitrogen washing technology. Turns out that technology doesn’t work. Intensive livestock in the way it’s happening now doesn’t have a future in the Netherlands. I’d like to go even further and say that it makes a poor investment anywhere in the world. Farmers are entrepreneurs. Being an entrepreneur means managing risks and they did that pretty poorly as a sector. A lot of farmers invited the risk and harvested its profits. Had they diversified they would have been in much better shape. You can’t eat your cake and have it..