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It has been used under the radar till this day. VimFX[1] uses it for keyboard navigation that works. Real keyboard navigation is impossible to implement with We

by mikae1 4y ago

It has been used under the radar till this day. VimFX[1] uses it for keyboard navigation that works. Real keyboard navigation is impossible to implement with WebExtensions. And yes yes, Vimium-FF[2] and all the other extensions that attempt to do this are broken. Here are some things that won't work with WebExtensions… * Vimium-FF does does not respond to input when a page is loading. With VimFX I press the h key to “go back one page” and the l key to “go forward one page” and it works while the page is loading, in Vimium-FF it does not. Imagine, in age of 5 MB web pages, not being able to go back because the page is loading. * Focusing on the address bar is only possible if you open a new tab. With VimFX you press o and you can immediately begin to type your URL in your current tab. In Vimium-FF an HTML/CSS/JS input box opens in your viewport. It can access your bookmarks and history but sorts them in strange ways and it does not understand bookmark keywords. * Opening a new tab disables Vimium-FF. Firefox can be set to show either “Blank Page” or “Firefox Home” when opening a new tab. Both of these options will focus on the address bar and focus can’t be reclaimed using Vimium-FF shortcuts. Actually, it can’t be reclaimed at all. So, effectively, opening a new tab using the Vimium-FF shortcut t disables Vimium-FF. The ugly way around it is to install the New Tab Override add-on and set an HTML document as your new tab URL. * It routinely and unexplainably fails when browsing some pages. XUL and VimFX will be sorely missed. It still works in Waterfox, but who knows for how long… [1] https://github.com/akhodakivskiy/VimFx/ https://github.com/akhodakivskiy/VimFx/ [2] https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/vimium-ff/ https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/vimium-ff/

Izkata 4y ago
I think Vimperator was the same. I don't recall blank and loading pages, but it definitely didn't have the "page is not focused" issue all the current ones have (where you have to click on the page and then it starts responding to keys).
- mikae1 4y ago
  Yes, it was the same. Killing XUL killed effectively keyboard navigation. My only hope is Qutebrowser, but I'm not sure who wants to surf the web without access to any extensions these days.
  - zamnos 4y ago
    Can and "wants to" are two different things. On iPhones and iPads, there's very limited access to extensions. So anybody on those platforms can't. (For now. The EU decision may change things.) As far as keyboard browsing, doesn't vimperator cover that?
    - mikae1 4y ago
      Vimperator was abandoned when XUL add-ons were abandoned, presumably because they couldn't pull it off with WebExtensions.
      - Izkata 4y ago
        Partially, the reasoning they gave back then was it was too tightly integrated with Firefox's internals. Even if WebExtensions had all the APIs needed, it would have needed nearly a complete rewrite and they weren't up to it.
      - zamnos 4y ago
        Ah yeah Vimium, for Chrome, not Vimperator, is the one was thinking of.
Aardwolf 4y ago
SeaMonkey browser is still maintained and is XUL based, it's the continuation of the original Mozilla browser
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  Latest release March 21, 2023!
  - steponlego 4y ago
    It's XUL based but has lots of other Mozilla garbage, like the bits of Rust they jammed in there and which are now essentially unmaintained.
    - SpaghettiCthulu 4y ago
      Why do you believe Rust to be "Mozilla garbage"?
- mikae1 4y ago
  Thanks! I'll likely use that until the XUL show is over for SeaMonkey. I'm currently on Waterfox, but I'm open to any alternative as it's owned by an adtech company...
eviks 4y ago
keyboard support is already such a 3rd-class citizen everywhere, and then it gets further degraded by steps like this...
- rvba 4y ago
  But hey someone could write a nice blog post about removing useful code! That person will soon land a nice 800k per year job in FAANG. Who cares about disabled people? Also who cares that firefox had a 40% market share when it allowed extensions? Extension model was hard to program so the code was depreciated and now Firefox has 2% share. But people responsible for this are not there any more.
  - syntheticnature 4y ago
    From what I can see, Firefox deprecated the old add-on structure in August 2015, and the statistics then were ~15% usage for Firefox -- well into its decline from its heyday.
    - pcwalton 4y ago
      Yep. There's a meme that always pops up on these threads that changes made to Firefox to "be more like Chrome" were the catalyst for its decline, but that's clearly not true if you look at the data; if anything, that meme reverses cause and effect. It also doesn't make sense: people wouldn't switch to Chrome if they disliked the changes Firefox was making to become more like it.
      - rvba 4y ago
        I use both Firefox and Chrome (and Opera too) - and I can tell you that the current version of Firefox is not only a "Chrome clone". It is worse chrome-like browser than Chrome. At the moment Firefox is a memory and processor hog (Chrome sometimes seems to have improved now). Only some ad-blockers keep Firefox alive. When Chrome kills ad-block (something that Google seems to be working on), then probably more people will come back to Firefox. But at the moment Firefox (even with ad-blockers) is a worse product than chrome. But think how many blog posts were written and how many people used Firefox as a stepping stone in their careers. Who cares that the product is just genuinely bad now. Also Firefox was always "the" customizable browser that all the techie people used. It spread via word of mouth - "hey, your browser does not show those nasty ads all the time, how do you do that". Or the techies installing Firefox to their family. At the moment you barely have an incentive, since Firefox feels like mostly a re-skin of Chrome. And bad at it too.
webmobdev 4y ago
Have you tried the Palemoon browser - http://www.palemoon.org/ http://www.palemoon.org/ ? It is a hard fork of Firefox that still supports XUL and the old XUL based Firefox extensions.

by mikae1 4y ago

Izkata 4y ago

I think Vimperator was the same. I don't recall blank and loading pages, but it definitely didn't have the "page is not focused" issue all the current ones have (where you have to click on the page and then it starts responding to keys).

mikae1 4y ago
Yes, it was the same. Killing XUL killed effectively keyboard navigation. My only hope is Qutebrowser, but I'm not sure who wants to surf the web without access to any extensions these days.
- zamnos 4y ago
  Can and "wants to" are two different things. On iPhones and iPads, there's very limited access to extensions. So anybody on those platforms can't. (For now. The EU decision may change things.) As far as keyboard browsing, doesn't vimperator cover that?
  - mikae1 4y ago
    Vimperator was abandoned when XUL add-ons were abandoned, presumably because they couldn't pull it off with WebExtensions.
    - Izkata 4y ago
      Partially, the reasoning they gave back then was it was too tightly integrated with Firefox's internals. Even if WebExtensions had all the APIs needed, it would have needed nearly a complete rewrite and they weren't up to it.
    - zamnos 4y ago
      Ah yeah Vimium, for Chrome, not Vimperator, is the one was thinking of.

Aardwolf 4y ago

SeaMonkey browser is still maintained and is XUL based, it's the continuation of the original Mozilla browser

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
Latest release March 21, 2023!
- steponlego 4y ago
  It's XUL based but has lots of other Mozilla garbage, like the bits of Rust they jammed in there and which are now essentially unmaintained.
  - SpaghettiCthulu 4y ago
    Why do you believe Rust to be "Mozilla garbage"?
mikae1 4y ago
Thanks! I'll likely use that until the XUL show is over for SeaMonkey. I'm currently on Waterfox, but I'm open to any alternative as it's owned by an adtech company...

eviks 4y ago

keyboard support is already such a 3rd-class citizen everywhere, and then it gets further degraded by steps like this...

rvba 4y ago
But hey someone could write a nice blog post about removing useful code! That person will soon land a nice 800k per year job in FAANG. Who cares about disabled people? Also who cares that firefox had a 40% market share when it allowed extensions? Extension model was hard to program so the code was depreciated and now Firefox has 2% share. But people responsible for this are not there any more.
- syntheticnature 4y ago
  From what I can see, Firefox deprecated the old add-on structure in August 2015, and the statistics then were ~15% usage for Firefox -- well into its decline from its heyday.
  - pcwalton 4y ago
    Yep. There's a meme that always pops up on these threads that changes made to Firefox to "be more like Chrome" were the catalyst for its decline, but that's clearly not true if you look at the data; if anything, that meme reverses cause and effect. It also doesn't make sense: people wouldn't switch to Chrome if they disliked the changes Firefox was making to become more like it.
    - rvba 4y ago
      I use both Firefox and Chrome (and Opera too) - and I can tell you that the current version of Firefox is not only a "Chrome clone". It is worse chrome-like browser than Chrome. At the moment Firefox is a memory and processor hog (Chrome sometimes seems to have improved now). Only some ad-blockers keep Firefox alive. When Chrome kills ad-block (something that Google seems to be working on), then probably more people will come back to Firefox. But at the moment Firefox (even with ad-blockers) is a worse product than chrome. But think how many blog posts were written and how many people used Firefox as a stepping stone in their careers. Who cares that the product is just genuinely bad now. Also Firefox was always "the" customizable browser that all the techie people used. It spread via word of mouth - "hey, your browser does not show those nasty ads all the time, how do you do that". Or the techies installing Firefox to their family. At the moment you barely have an incentive, since Firefox feels like mostly a re-skin of Chrome. And bad at it too.

webmobdev 4y ago

Have you tried the Palemoon browser - http://www.palemoon.org/ http://www.palemoon.org/ ? It is a hard fork of Firefox that still supports XUL and the old XUL based Firefox extensions.