8 ms·

So in other words, if we want stable marriages, we should not financially devastate men in divorce and give their wives cash and prizes and accolades for breaki

So in other words, if we want stable marriages, we should not financially devastate men in divorce and give their wives cash and prizes and accolades for breaking up their families and pushing fathers out of their kids' lives. Got it. Most of us knew this already but it's nice to have a study to confirm it.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
geewee 4y ago
This seems like an oddly woman-hostile take that's only very tangentially related to the study.
- leobg 4y ago
  You could say woman-hostile. You could also say victim mentality. He who is being left usually has walked away first.
  - leobg 4y ago
    Down-vote and move on. That’s exactly what you’re blaming women for, isn’t it?
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  It’s not intended to be woman-hostile at all. It’s opposed to a specific system of incentives that encourages immoral and socially destructive behavior. It just happens to be that the system of incentives is itself designed to operate unequally and so it affects the participants in families differently. If a similar system of incentives were created that strongly benefitted fathers in ways that fathers would respond to, we would probably see similar dysfunctional behavior from fathers.
  - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
    It seems women-hostile because: 1) It doesn't seem to follow from the paper. Which states that the wealthier partner tends to retain most of the married wealth. > While the richer spouse redistributes some assets to the poorer spouse in the typical settlement, the amount of redistribution is smaller than the amount required to ensure an equal split of the assets. This empirical finding suggests that the <lottery winning> spouses in our samples may anticipate retaining a larger share of the prize money in the event of divorce 2) If the only thing keeping a marriage together is the lack of wealth necessary for one party (the woman) to adequately survive after the divorce, then this is not a stable marriage. You seem to have come into this with an already formed opinion. Which is fine, but the opinion seems to be about circumstances not addressed by this study.
  - leobg 4y ago
    This is silly. If your marriage is falling apart, you can’t wait for “the incentive system” to be changed. By whom, anyway? Also, many women will not leave the father of their children just for financial incentives. If there is the case, you gotta ask yourself what your marriage was based on in the first place. I agree that social pressure does play a role. For instance, I just saw a New York Times article that said “My husband doesn’t want sex anymore, do I divorce him?“. I agree with you that that is a disgusting framework of entitlement and replacability. But: If such cultural messages have more influence in your wife’s behavior than you, you gotta ask yourself… If you choose to believe what you just said, you’re gonna be a divorced Joe Rogan subscribing expat in Thailand pretty soon.
    - watwut 4y ago
      I have seen similar advice to men too. Dead bedroom in a long term destroys marriages ir is a sign of an issue in marriage. Intimacy matters to people.
      - leobg 4y ago
        Intimacy, like love, isn’t something you get. It’s something you do. Getting the mental model wrong about this is a guarantee for disappointment. And for silly drama triangle thinking in terms of victim, perpetrator and savior (which does make for good clickbait).
- WrtCdEvrydy 4y ago
  > like an oddly woman-hostile take Noone cared about alimony until women started having to pay and now there's suddenly a movement to remove it.
  - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
    If anyone thinks there's "suddenly" a social movement, it's likely that they just didn't notice that it has been happening for a long time.
anonymouskimmer 4y ago
Here are first-take conclusions I draw from the article: > The only discernible effect on female winners is that wealth increases their short-run (but not long-run) divorce risk. Women still divorce their sucky husbands. It just takes longer. This could result in fewer kids, or it could result in kids whose homes are broken during later childhood or adolescence. Reading the actual paper, this is, in fact, the conclusion the authors come to: "In contrast, the only exception to the pattern of null results for female winners is that lottery wealth almost doubles their short-run probability of divorce. One interpretation of the absence of a discernible long-run increase in divorce risk among these women is that wealth accelerates the dissolution of marriages that were already underway." > We also report results which suggest that when married men win the lottery, the windfall has a tendency to stabilize their existing marriages Winning a lottery helps men feel secure enough that they aren't as sucky to their spouse. > lottery wins cause the largest increase in marriage rates and the biggest reduction in divorce rates among unmarried men with low incomes. So if you want stable marriages that have children the best thing to do is make people wealthier, especially those of lower income. Make men wealthier and they'll get married more and have more children. Make women wealthier and the men they stick with will be ones they like sticking with. I can't see this latter leading to fewer children, on average. I'd expect it would lead to more. Where'd you get your idea from?
- watwut 4y ago
  Afaik financial worries are a big reason why some women stay with abusive partners. This is gendered - many sub groups expect men to be breadwinner and women to be primary caregiver. So women are more likely to have no income for period of time or have child duties that interfere with work. Contrary what OP wrote, typical result is that women becomes poorer after divorce and men had more money. (And no, alimony are nit given out like candies). It is not only reason, but practically not having money and risking poverty or homelessness means you need to plan divorce very carefully.
- gnull 4y ago
  > sucky husbands It's become the standard in some companies to bitch about men and presume they're suckers and abusers is any situation that involves both sexes. Let's keep in mind that it's not science saying this, but woke ideology. > the best thing to do is make people wealthier Far-fetched. Winning a lottery makes you much wealthier relative to other people, it puts you in maybe 10-20% richest people of your country. You can't fit everyone in those 20%. Look at something like Uzbekistan. Country is miserably poor compared to Sweden and they still reproduce like they win lotteries all the time.
whatever1 4y ago
Alternative interpretation: Many women tolerate abusive relationships because they do not have the means to financially support themselves and their kids. Winning the lottery is a way out.
- RajT88 4y ago
  Probably a factor. Another is that some men are uncomfortable with a wealthier partner. I know a few like this who say it plainly, but it showed up recently in "Crazy Rich Asians" with the tech CEO husband.
  - glogla 4y ago
    I think research actually show this is the other way around - very little women are ok with marrying less wealthy me, while for men it is common (e.g. male doctor might marry a female nurse but it will rarely happen the other way around).
GrigoriyMikh 4y ago
I don't understand why people, on, supposedly, intellectual resource like HN, are offended when people state that women attracted to success(which can be measured in a multiple things, but right now, in the most places it's money). Keep dialogue constructive, things are like they are.
watwut 4y ago
I think that you are simply lying about the financial devastation divorce has on men and women. Obviously the material split differs between countries, but I literally no country I actually looked at what you wrote was actually true.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

geewee 4y ago

This seems like an oddly woman-hostile take that's only very tangentially related to the study.

leobg 4y ago
You could say woman-hostile. You could also say victim mentality. He who is being left usually has walked away first.
- leobg 4y ago
  Down-vote and move on. That’s exactly what you’re blaming women for, isn’t it?
epicureanideal 4y ago
It’s not intended to be woman-hostile at all. It’s opposed to a specific system of incentives that encourages immoral and socially destructive behavior. It just happens to be that the system of incentives is itself designed to operate unequally and so it affects the participants in families differently. If a similar system of incentives were created that strongly benefitted fathers in ways that fathers would respond to, we would probably see similar dysfunctional behavior from fathers.
- anonymouskimmer 4y ago
  It seems women-hostile because: 1) It doesn't seem to follow from the paper. Which states that the wealthier partner tends to retain most of the married wealth. > While the richer spouse redistributes some assets to the poorer spouse in the typical settlement, the amount of redistribution is smaller than the amount required to ensure an equal split of the assets. This empirical finding suggests that the <lottery winning> spouses in our samples may anticipate retaining a larger share of the prize money in the event of divorce 2) If the only thing keeping a marriage together is the lack of wealth necessary for one party (the woman) to adequately survive after the divorce, then this is not a stable marriage. You seem to have come into this with an already formed opinion. Which is fine, but the opinion seems to be about circumstances not addressed by this study.
- leobg 4y ago
  This is silly. If your marriage is falling apart, you can’t wait for “the incentive system” to be changed. By whom, anyway? Also, many women will not leave the father of their children just for financial incentives. If there is the case, you gotta ask yourself what your marriage was based on in the first place. I agree that social pressure does play a role. For instance, I just saw a New York Times article that said “My husband doesn’t want sex anymore, do I divorce him?“. I agree with you that that is a disgusting framework of entitlement and replacability. But: If such cultural messages have more influence in your wife’s behavior than you, you gotta ask yourself… If you choose to believe what you just said, you’re gonna be a divorced Joe Rogan subscribing expat in Thailand pretty soon.
  - watwut 4y ago
    I have seen similar advice to men too. Dead bedroom in a long term destroys marriages ir is a sign of an issue in marriage. Intimacy matters to people.
    - leobg 4y ago
      Intimacy, like love, isn’t something you get. It’s something you do. Getting the mental model wrong about this is a guarantee for disappointment. And for silly drama triangle thinking in terms of victim, perpetrator and savior (which does make for good clickbait).
WrtCdEvrydy 4y ago
> like an oddly woman-hostile take Noone cared about alimony until women started having to pay and now there's suddenly a movement to remove it.
- anonymouskimmer 4y ago
  If anyone thinks there's "suddenly" a social movement, it's likely that they just didn't notice that it has been happening for a long time.

anonymouskimmer 4y ago

Here are first-take conclusions I draw from the article: > The only discernible effect on female winners is that wealth increases their short-run (but not long-run) divorce risk. Women still divorce their sucky husbands. It just takes longer. This could result in fewer kids, or it could result in kids whose homes are broken during later childhood or adolescence. Reading the actual paper, this is, in fact, the conclusion the authors come to: "In contrast, the only exception to the pattern of null results for female winners is that lottery wealth almost doubles their short-run probability of divorce. One interpretation of the absence of a discernible long-run increase in divorce risk among these women is that wealth accelerates the dissolution of marriages that were already underway." > We also report results which suggest that when married men win the lottery, the windfall has a tendency to stabilize their existing marriages Winning a lottery helps men feel secure enough that they aren't as sucky to their spouse. > lottery wins cause the largest increase in marriage rates and the biggest reduction in divorce rates among unmarried men with low incomes. So if you want stable marriages that have children the best thing to do is make people wealthier, especially those of lower income. Make men wealthier and they'll get married more and have more children. Make women wealthier and the men they stick with will be ones they like sticking with. I can't see this latter leading to fewer children, on average. I'd expect it would lead to more. Where'd you get your idea from?

watwut 4y ago
Afaik financial worries are a big reason why some women stay with abusive partners. This is gendered - many sub groups expect men to be breadwinner and women to be primary caregiver. So women are more likely to have no income for period of time or have child duties that interfere with work. Contrary what OP wrote, typical result is that women becomes poorer after divorce and men had more money. (And no, alimony are nit given out like candies). It is not only reason, but practically not having money and risking poverty or homelessness means you need to plan divorce very carefully.
gnull 4y ago
> sucky husbands It's become the standard in some companies to bitch about men and presume they're suckers and abusers is any situation that involves both sexes. Let's keep in mind that it's not science saying this, but woke ideology. > the best thing to do is make people wealthier Far-fetched. Winning a lottery makes you much wealthier relative to other people, it puts you in maybe 10-20% richest people of your country. You can't fit everyone in those 20%. Look at something like Uzbekistan. Country is miserably poor compared to Sweden and they still reproduce like they win lotteries all the time.

whatever1 4y ago

Alternative interpretation: Many women tolerate abusive relationships because they do not have the means to financially support themselves and their kids. Winning the lottery is a way out.

RajT88 4y ago
Probably a factor. Another is that some men are uncomfortable with a wealthier partner. I know a few like this who say it plainly, but it showed up recently in "Crazy Rich Asians" with the tech CEO husband.
- glogla 4y ago
  I think research actually show this is the other way around - very little women are ok with marrying less wealthy me, while for men it is common (e.g. male doctor might marry a female nurse but it will rarely happen the other way around).

GrigoriyMikh 4y ago

I don't understand why people, on, supposedly, intellectual resource like HN, are offended when people state that women attracted to success(which can be measured in a multiple things, but right now, in the most places it's money). Keep dialogue constructive, things are like they are.

watwut 4y ago

I think that you are simply lying about the financial devastation divorce has on men and women. Obviously the material split differs between countries, but I literally no country I actually looked at what you wrote was actually true.