7 ms·

> The government doesn't want to do anything Looks like the voters dont want to do anything either, if they keep re-electing the same party/politicians.

by sumedh 4y ago

LegitShady 4y ago
All 3 of the major parties are pro huge immigration. Any discussion to the contrary is labelled racist regardless of a housing and healthcare crisis. Businesses underpay and when they can't find people willing to impoverish themselves to work for them, they apply to the government to bring in "temporary foreign workers" - for things like fast food restaurant workers not essential business, keeping the wages down. Temporary foreign workers and international students in canada are allowed to buy housing, so aside from renting the rich ones who make it here actually buy up properties for their family offshore. Even if Canadians vote out Trudeau, Poilievre of the conservatives has no interest in slowing down immigration or affecting policies to improve access to housing. The leader of the NDP, Singh, is useless and his party is also very pro immigration and has no housing policies that would affect the market. What we're seeing is a death spiral of some kind but I'm not sure where the ultimate end goes - no doctors, no housing, low wages compared to housing and food costs, etc. This is textbook conditions for serious blowback and social instability. When asked why there wasn't anything in this years announced budget to deal with the housing crisis Christina Freedland says that they're still spending money from last year's budget on it. Well how about you see the fruits of your labours and realize it isn't working out well for Canadians, and do something else/more? If we don't manage to vote trudeau out this time around I'm going to look into immigrating to texas. People joke about that but texas recognizes my professional licensing and all I'd need is a job offer.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  I wonder how much of this issue is due to our (enormous) amount of immigration, given that fertility rate has been below the replacement rate since 1970 or so
  - throwawaybbq1 4y ago
    I would have gladly had more kids if I could have afforded a place to put them. Do you know what a 3 bed condo costs in Toronto? It is financial suicide.
    - pcthrowaway 4y ago
      Less than in Vancouver. I have no kids and will never have any. I couldn't afford them if I wanted them
    - badpun 4y ago
      In my parents generation in communist Poland, people had 2-3 children families in flats no bigger than 500-750 sqft. When there's a will, there's a way, and people just truy wanted to have children back then. While nowadays, it seems that there's always some excuse in the way.
      - Glawen 4y ago
        This. People lived more frugally, nearly never went on vacation, had very small cars. Now it seems everything needs to be ready before having children: big house, big car, career.
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
    Countries that have fertility rates below replacement should be encouraging immigration. Otherwise they're going to be facing some serious economic problems as their populations age.
    - LegitShady 4y ago
      some immigration is different than what canada is doing, which is mass immigration at a rate far outpacing most other countries. nearly 1/4 of canadians are immigrants, and we're allowing so many in per year that our housing and healthcare. Its too expensive to have kids for many young people - I have friends who would like to have them but can't afford it.
- xist 4y ago
  > Businesses underpay and when they can't find people willing to impoverish themselves to work for them, they apply to the government to bring in "temporary foreign workers" - for things like fast food restaurant workers not essential business, keeping the wages down. > Temporary foreign workers and international students in canada are allowed to buy housing, so aside from renting the rich ones who make it here actually buy up properties for their family offshore. If they're being paid so little, I don't see how they could possibly afford to buy any properties. I've only known a few, but they all send the majority of the money back home instead. This feels very fear mongering on TFWs and not grounded in facts.
  - LegitShady 4y ago
    Some TFWs and international students some come from wealthy families in their home country and use whatever program they can to get into canada to get a foot in the door, and be allowed to buy a house here. I live in an east indian heavy neighborhood and I know a dozen people who were extremely rich before every coming to canada, far far more than the average canadian.
    - xist 4y ago
      Make sense, rich people would have an easier time to immigrate. But how many of this dozen are here on TFW like you're suggesting? I'm doubtful that it's TFW that are buying the properties you're concerned with, especially since they're still at the mercy of PR/work authorization laws that could make them leave the country at any time. It _could_ happen, but that would be pretty exceptional. You want to complain about foreigners making house prices too high for you, you do you. Just be accurate in your complaints.
      - LegitShady 4y ago
        TFW are used to drive down wages. international students do purchase houses for their families out of country - it happens more in some areas than others. And if someone couldn't get in as a student, they might try to get in as a TFW and spend their family money on a home - I don't know how often it happens but its allowed because TFWs DO buy houses.
- mthoms 4y ago
  Are there any economists that support your theory? Namely that (if I understand your point correctly) immigration is hurting the economy more than it’s helping? Everything I’ve seen claims the opposite - but I’m open to new information. Also, what support do you have for the claim that the existence of temporary foreign workers suppress wages for working Canadians? My understanding is that they are performing jobs that Canadians just won’t do and thus, their presence shouldn’t affect Canadian working wages (or so the theory goes).
  - LegitShady 4y ago
    They aren't doing jobs canadians wont do, they're doing jobs canadians wont do for the wages being offered. If they raised the wages, people would want to do them. Instead companies hire at very low wages, and very few people want to work for them, they apply to bring in TFW who are desperate. Their presence suppresses the wages because there's a basically unlimited pool of people willing to work for suppressed wages. All businesses have to do is not raise wages and the prevailing wage is whatever they offer. Almost every tim hortons, mcdonalds, burger king, etc in canada is staffed with TFW. I'd rather they raise the wages or go out of business. Instead they import workers and keep wages suppressed.
    - mthoms 4y ago
      We partially agree here. However the vast majority of TFW’s are farm labourers. This is gruelling, backbreaking work that am not convinced Canadians would do at any (realistic) wage. It’s also highly seasonal so not really a big help if people just go on EI afterwards. Furthermore, with grocery inflation what it is, what do you think would happen if the wages of the pickers doubled or tripled because they were done by Canadians? I’ll tell you what would happen - People would lose their minds. So… it’s complicated (at least in that industry). I’m not as convinced about the need for them in tech and restaurants because, as you say, they should probably just pay more and Canadians would do those jobs. But the numbers I saw don’t seem that significant so I’m not so sure. Unemployment is also at the lowest it’s been in ~50 years so.. where would those new Canadian workers come from anyways? There are no simple answers. That’s why I’d like to see what economists are saying. I know that with regular immigration, there’s a consensus among many economists that we need them so our economy doesn’t actually shrink due to low birth rates.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > Temporary foreign workers and international students in canada are allowed to buy housing What? Drug lords and warlords are allowed to buy real estate in the west through shell companies registered in tax heavens. It's the same companies that do 'tax optimisation' for our billionaires. The head of Wagner Prigozhin has passed money laundering check in London while he was under sanctions and wanted by the FBI, he submitted his mother's gas bill. https://www.ft.com/content/3e1b5bc5-090c-434d-84e4-ca2b120cf089 https://www.ft.com/content/3e1b5bc5-090c-434d-84e4-ca2b120cf...
andsoitis 4y ago
There is more than just one issue. A voter doesn’t necessarily agree on everything with the person they voted for.
- throwawaybbq1 4y ago
  I'm an immigrant and got really burned during the Harper admin (Kenny's handling of immigration destroyed my life). That basically meant my options are Liberal or NDP. NDP policies seem to think if I make more than 200K, I am a rich fat cat (ignore that I have a freakin PhD at the cost of a delay in buying a house - effectively making me far poorer in wealth terms than someone with a mediocre undergrad who bought a place anytime before 2015). Last election, I recall thinking, how can I vote NDP if them winning means I'll leave the country. That means, my only choice is Liberal. I am so fed up with their mismanagement, that I think I need to vote conservative just to make my voice heard, and then if (when?) the xenophobes of that party come out, go liberal again. I dunno .. feels like Canada isn't for people like me.
  - throwawaybbq1 4y ago
    I only see one solution to right the wrongs of the past (with respect to the housing bubble). Tax wealth annually. Tax home sales the way the US does it. As a society, we need to acknowledge how zero interest rates were directly responsible for the housing bubble. The people that caused that should be shamed publicly.
    - owyn 4y ago
      Interest rates and tax policy have massive impacts on behavior and the overall economy. It's kind of nuts that we do live in a system where these rules change all the time based on the whims of a bunch of politicians, half of whom are apparently members of an apocalyptic death cult. Or in this case, kinda racist? "The bridge from Rinkeby makes it easier for criminals to recruit your children into crime," the party told local voters during last year’s campaign. Speaking of taxing home sales, before 1997 any profit was considered capital gains. After the "taxpayer relief act" in 1997, the first $250k was exempted ($500k if married). So that was like a big flag saying "go forth and make money flipping houses". Side effect in our timeline is the creation of infinite home flipper content for YouTube. Similar signals with zero interest rates. "Buy a house now, no matter what it costs, for tomorrow it will cost more. Oh, maybe buy some guns too while you're at it, the end times are near".

> The government doesn't want to do anything Looks like the voters dont want to do anything either, if they keep re-electing the same party/politicians.

by sumedh 4y ago

> The government doesn't want to do anything Looks like the voters dont want to do anything either, if they keep re-electing the same party/politicians.

LegitShady 4y ago

All 3 of the major parties are pro huge immigration. Any discussion to the contrary is labelled racist regardless of a housing and healthcare crisis. Businesses underpay and when they can't find people willing to impoverish themselves to work for them, they apply to the government to bring in "temporary foreign workers" - for things like fast food restaurant workers not essential business, keeping the wages down. Temporary foreign workers and international students in canada are allowed to buy housing, so aside from renting the rich ones who make it here actually buy up properties for their family offshore. Even if Canadians vote out Trudeau, Poilievre of the conservatives has no interest in slowing down immigration or affecting policies to improve access to housing. The leader of the NDP, Singh, is useless and his party is also very pro immigration and has no housing policies that would affect the market. What we're seeing is a death spiral of some kind but I'm not sure where the ultimate end goes - no doctors, no housing, low wages compared to housing and food costs, etc. This is textbook conditions for serious blowback and social instability. When asked why there wasn't anything in this years announced budget to deal with the housing crisis Christina Freedland says that they're still spending money from last year's budget on it. Well how about you see the fruits of your labours and realize it isn't working out well for Canadians, and do something else/more? If we don't manage to vote trudeau out this time around I'm going to look into immigrating to texas. People joke about that but texas recognizes my professional licensing and all I'd need is a job offer.

pcthrowaway 4y ago
I wonder how much of this issue is due to our (enormous) amount of immigration, given that fertility rate has been below the replacement rate since 1970 or so
- throwawaybbq1 4y ago
  I would have gladly had more kids if I could have afforded a place to put them. Do you know what a 3 bed condo costs in Toronto? It is financial suicide.
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    Less than in Vancouver. I have no kids and will never have any. I couldn't afford them if I wanted them
  - badpun 4y ago
    In my parents generation in communist Poland, people had 2-3 children families in flats no bigger than 500-750 sqft. When there's a will, there's a way, and people just truy wanted to have children back then. While nowadays, it seems that there's always some excuse in the way.
    - Glawen 4y ago
      This. People lived more frugally, nearly never went on vacation, had very small cars. Now it seems everything needs to be ready before having children: big house, big car, career.
- UncleOxidant 4y ago
  Countries that have fertility rates below replacement should be encouraging immigration. Otherwise they're going to be facing some serious economic problems as their populations age.
  - LegitShady 4y ago
    some immigration is different than what canada is doing, which is mass immigration at a rate far outpacing most other countries. nearly 1/4 of canadians are immigrants, and we're allowing so many in per year that our housing and healthcare. Its too expensive to have kids for many young people - I have friends who would like to have them but can't afford it.
xist 4y ago
> Businesses underpay and when they can't find people willing to impoverish themselves to work for them, they apply to the government to bring in "temporary foreign workers" - for things like fast food restaurant workers not essential business, keeping the wages down. > Temporary foreign workers and international students in canada are allowed to buy housing, so aside from renting the rich ones who make it here actually buy up properties for their family offshore. If they're being paid so little, I don't see how they could possibly afford to buy any properties. I've only known a few, but they all send the majority of the money back home instead. This feels very fear mongering on TFWs and not grounded in facts.
- LegitShady 4y ago
  Some TFWs and international students some come from wealthy families in their home country and use whatever program they can to get into canada to get a foot in the door, and be allowed to buy a house here. I live in an east indian heavy neighborhood and I know a dozen people who were extremely rich before every coming to canada, far far more than the average canadian.
  - xist 4y ago
    Make sense, rich people would have an easier time to immigrate. But how many of this dozen are here on TFW like you're suggesting? I'm doubtful that it's TFW that are buying the properties you're concerned with, especially since they're still at the mercy of PR/work authorization laws that could make them leave the country at any time. It _could_ happen, but that would be pretty exceptional. You want to complain about foreigners making house prices too high for you, you do you. Just be accurate in your complaints.
    - LegitShady 4y ago
      TFW are used to drive down wages. international students do purchase houses for their families out of country - it happens more in some areas than others. And if someone couldn't get in as a student, they might try to get in as a TFW and spend their family money on a home - I don't know how often it happens but its allowed because TFWs DO buy houses.
mthoms 4y ago
Are there any economists that support your theory? Namely that (if I understand your point correctly) immigration is hurting the economy more than it’s helping? Everything I’ve seen claims the opposite - but I’m open to new information. Also, what support do you have for the claim that the existence of temporary foreign workers suppress wages for working Canadians? My understanding is that they are performing jobs that Canadians just won’t do and thus, their presence shouldn’t affect Canadian working wages (or so the theory goes).
- LegitShady 4y ago
  They aren't doing jobs canadians wont do, they're doing jobs canadians wont do for the wages being offered. If they raised the wages, people would want to do them. Instead companies hire at very low wages, and very few people want to work for them, they apply to bring in TFW who are desperate. Their presence suppresses the wages because there's a basically unlimited pool of people willing to work for suppressed wages. All businesses have to do is not raise wages and the prevailing wage is whatever they offer. Almost every tim hortons, mcdonalds, burger king, etc in canada is staffed with TFW. I'd rather they raise the wages or go out of business. Instead they import workers and keep wages suppressed.
  - mthoms 4y ago
    We partially agree here. However the vast majority of TFW’s are farm labourers. This is gruelling, backbreaking work that am not convinced Canadians would do at any (realistic) wage. It’s also highly seasonal so not really a big help if people just go on EI afterwards. Furthermore, with grocery inflation what it is, what do you think would happen if the wages of the pickers doubled or tripled because they were done by Canadians? I’ll tell you what would happen - People would lose their minds. So… it’s complicated (at least in that industry). I’m not as convinced about the need for them in tech and restaurants because, as you say, they should probably just pay more and Canadians would do those jobs. But the numbers I saw don’t seem that significant so I’m not so sure. Unemployment is also at the lowest it’s been in ~50 years so.. where would those new Canadian workers come from anyways? There are no simple answers. That’s why I’d like to see what economists are saying. I know that with regular immigration, there’s a consensus among many economists that we need them so our economy doesn’t actually shrink due to low birth rates.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> Temporary foreign workers and international students in canada are allowed to buy housing What? Drug lords and warlords are allowed to buy real estate in the west through shell companies registered in tax heavens. It's the same companies that do 'tax optimisation' for our billionaires. The head of Wagner Prigozhin has passed money laundering check in London while he was under sanctions and wanted by the FBI, he submitted his mother's gas bill. https://www.ft.com/content/3e1b5bc5-090c-434d-84e4-ca2b120cf089 https://www.ft.com/content/3e1b5bc5-090c-434d-84e4-ca2b120cf...

andsoitis 4y ago

There is more than just one issue. A voter doesn’t necessarily agree on everything with the person they voted for.

throwawaybbq1 4y ago
I'm an immigrant and got really burned during the Harper admin (Kenny's handling of immigration destroyed my life). That basically meant my options are Liberal or NDP. NDP policies seem to think if I make more than 200K, I am a rich fat cat (ignore that I have a freakin PhD at the cost of a delay in buying a house - effectively making me far poorer in wealth terms than someone with a mediocre undergrad who bought a place anytime before 2015). Last election, I recall thinking, how can I vote NDP if them winning means I'll leave the country. That means, my only choice is Liberal. I am so fed up with their mismanagement, that I think I need to vote conservative just to make my voice heard, and then if (when?) the xenophobes of that party come out, go liberal again. I dunno .. feels like Canada isn't for people like me.
- throwawaybbq1 4y ago
  I only see one solution to right the wrongs of the past (with respect to the housing bubble). Tax wealth annually. Tax home sales the way the US does it. As a society, we need to acknowledge how zero interest rates were directly responsible for the housing bubble. The people that caused that should be shamed publicly.
  - owyn 4y ago
    Interest rates and tax policy have massive impacts on behavior and the overall economy. It's kind of nuts that we do live in a system where these rules change all the time based on the whims of a bunch of politicians, half of whom are apparently members of an apocalyptic death cult. Or in this case, kinda racist? "The bridge from Rinkeby makes it easier for criminals to recruit your children into crime," the party told local voters during last year’s campaign. Speaking of taxing home sales, before 1997 any profit was considered capital gains. After the "taxpayer relief act" in 1997, the first $250k was exempted ($500k if married). So that was like a big flag saying "go forth and make money flipping houses". Side effect in our timeline is the creation of infinite home flipper content for YouTube. Similar signals with zero interest rates. "Buy a house now, no matter what it costs, for tomorrow it will cost more. Oh, maybe buy some guns too while you're at it, the end times are near".