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In Canada even if they do build housing 1) the immigration rate is so high it isn't enough to keep up 2) the house values in areas that dont build in enough h

In Canada even if they do build housing 1) the immigration rate is so high it isn't enough to keep up 2) the house values in areas that dont build in enough housing have skyrocketed, and smart homeowners in those areas have decided to sell and move to places with lower house prices and purchase more than one, which of course rockets the price even in the places that do build a lot. So even in provinces where lots of housing is built, immigration from other countries and other provinces blows up the housing prices anyways. 3) The government doesn't want to do anything about it because immigration is how they're keeping down wages, and since housing has become so much of the GDP they're terrified of what it would mean for the economy if there was a price crash anyways, so they don't look at policies that would fight the housing price explosion in fear of what the economy will look like if they do.

sumedh 4y ago
> The government doesn't want to do anything Looks like the voters dont want to do anything either, if they keep re-electing the same party/politicians.
- LegitShady 4y ago
  All 3 of the major parties are pro huge immigration. Any discussion to the contrary is labelled racist regardless of a housing and healthcare crisis. Businesses underpay and when they can't find people willing to impoverish themselves to work for them, they apply to the government to bring in "temporary foreign workers" - for things like fast food restaurant workers not essential business, keeping the wages down. Temporary foreign workers and international students in canada are allowed to buy housing, so aside from renting the rich ones who make it here actually buy up properties for their family offshore. Even if Canadians vote out Trudeau, Poilievre of the conservatives has no interest in slowing down immigration or affecting policies to improve access to housing. The leader of the NDP, Singh, is useless and his party is also very pro immigration and has no housing policies that would affect the market. What we're seeing is a death spiral of some kind but I'm not sure where the ultimate end goes - no doctors, no housing, low wages compared to housing and food costs, etc. This is textbook conditions for serious blowback and social instability. When asked why there wasn't anything in this years announced budget to deal with the housing crisis Christina Freedland says that they're still spending money from last year's budget on it. Well how about you see the fruits of your labours and realize it isn't working out well for Canadians, and do something else/more? If we don't manage to vote trudeau out this time around I'm going to look into immigrating to texas. People joke about that but texas recognizes my professional licensing and all I'd need is a job offer.
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    I wonder how much of this issue is due to our (enormous) amount of immigration, given that fertility rate has been below the replacement rate since 1970 or so
    - throwawaybbq1 4y ago
      I would have gladly had more kids if I could have afforded a place to put them. Do you know what a 3 bed condo costs in Toronto? It is financial suicide.
      - pcthrowaway 4y ago
        Less than in Vancouver. I have no kids and will never have any. I couldn't afford them if I wanted them
      - badpun 4y ago
        In my parents generation in communist Poland, people had 2-3 children families in flats no bigger than 500-750 sqft. When there's a will, there's a way, and people just truy wanted to have children back then. While nowadays, it seems that there's always some excuse in the way.
        Glawen 4y ago
        This. People lived more frugally, nearly never went on vacation, had very small cars. Now it seems everything needs to be ready before having children: big house, big car, career.
    - UncleOxidant 4y ago
      Countries that have fertility rates below replacement should be encouraging immigration. Otherwise they're going to be facing some serious economic problems as their populations age.
      - LegitShady 4y ago
- andsoitis 4y ago
  There is more than just one issue. A voter doesn’t necessarily agree on everything with the person they voted for.
  - throwawaybbq1 4y ago
    I'm an immigrant and got really burned during the Harper admin (Kenny's handling of immigration destroyed my life). That basically meant my options are Liberal or NDP. NDP policies seem to think if I make more than 200K, I am a rich fat cat (ignore that I have a freakin PhD at the cost of a delay in buying a house - effectively making me far poorer in wealth terms than someone with a mediocre undergrad who bought a place anytime before 2015). Last election, I recall thinking, how can I vote NDP if them winning means I'll leave the country. That means, my only choice is Liberal. I am so fed up with their mismanagement, that I think I need to vote conservative just to make my voice heard, and then if (when?) the xenophobes of that party come out, go liberal again. I dunno .. feels like Canada isn't for people like me.
    - throwawaybbq1 4y ago
      I only see one solution to right the wrongs of the past (with respect to the housing bubble). Tax wealth annually. Tax home sales the way the US does it. As a society, we need to acknowledge how zero interest rates were directly responsible for the housing bubble. The people that caused that should be shamed publicly.
      - owyn 4y ago
        Interest rates and tax policy have massive impacts on behavior and the overall economy. It's kind of nuts that we do live in a system where these rules change all the time based on the whims of a bunch of politicians, half of whom are apparently members of an apocalyptic death cult. Or in this case, kinda racist? "The bridge from Rinkeby makes it easier for criminals to recruit your children into crime," the party told local voters during last year’s campaign. Speaking of taxing home sales, before 1997 any profit was considered capital gains. After the "taxpayer relief act" in 1997, the first $250k was exempted ($500k if married). So that was like a big flag saying "go forth and make money flipping houses". Side effect in our timeline is the creation of infinite home flipper content for YouTube. Similar signals with zero interest rates. "Buy a house now, no matter what it costs, for tomorrow it will cost more. Oh, maybe buy some guns too while you're at it, the end times are near".
bluefirebrand 4y ago
Many immigrants come to Canada with more wealth than the average Canadian too. Or at least more family wealth.
UncleOxidant 4y ago
> 1) the immigration rate is so high it isn't enough to keep up That could be addressed by making home building a priority and by relaxing regulations like zoning. Allow more infill. > 3) The government doesn't want to do anything about it because immigration is how they're keeping down wages That's not the only reason to support immigration. Canada, as is the case with most western nations, is facing a demographic cliff due to lowering birthrates among it's citizens. Countries that allow more immigration can mitigate these demographic problems. Countries that are facing birthrates that are falling to or under the replacement rate should be trying to attract immigrant labor. Countries in that position that don't are going to be facing some serious issues in the not too distant future as their populations age.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  > That could be addressed by making home building a priority and by relaxing regulations like zoning. Allow more infill. Unfortunately, it seems like incentives aren't aligned with the people responsible for zoning and regulation, for that to happen. Incumbent homeowners for whatever reason are better organized at mobilizing around their political interests
  - AmericanChopper 4y ago
    There’s another reason that local governments don’t embrace intensification, which is that they will be responsible for building the infrastructure to support it. Take a look at Jakarta where zoning laws focus heavily on intensification. Housing is cheap, but power cuts are normal, most of the city smells like sewage because you have sewage flowing into storm water infrastructure, the city regularly floods, and parts of it are sinking into to ocean because unregulated ground water extraction has caused meters worth of subsistence in some areas (the roads are also terrible, but surprisingly the city has been making very good progress in that area at least). Now you can manage all of those things, but it requires competence and proper management of resources. Something local governments tend to not be good at, and why would any of them want to take the risk? Expensive housing and bad traffic is the status quo, flooding you could probably blame on climate change, but power cuts, lack of running water and a city that smells like shit would cost too many people their jobs.

sumedh 4y ago

> The government doesn't want to do anything Looks like the voters dont want to do anything either, if they keep re-electing the same party/politicians.

LegitShady 4y ago
All 3 of the major parties are pro huge immigration. Any discussion to the contrary is labelled racist regardless of a housing and healthcare crisis. Businesses underpay and when they can't find people willing to impoverish themselves to work for them, they apply to the government to bring in "temporary foreign workers" - for things like fast food restaurant workers not essential business, keeping the wages down. Temporary foreign workers and international students in canada are allowed to buy housing, so aside from renting the rich ones who make it here actually buy up properties for their family offshore. Even if Canadians vote out Trudeau, Poilievre of the conservatives has no interest in slowing down immigration or affecting policies to improve access to housing. The leader of the NDP, Singh, is useless and his party is also very pro immigration and has no housing policies that would affect the market. What we're seeing is a death spiral of some kind but I'm not sure where the ultimate end goes - no doctors, no housing, low wages compared to housing and food costs, etc. This is textbook conditions for serious blowback and social instability. When asked why there wasn't anything in this years announced budget to deal with the housing crisis Christina Freedland says that they're still spending money from last year's budget on it. Well how about you see the fruits of your labours and realize it isn't working out well for Canadians, and do something else/more? If we don't manage to vote trudeau out this time around I'm going to look into immigrating to texas. People joke about that but texas recognizes my professional licensing and all I'd need is a job offer.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  I wonder how much of this issue is due to our (enormous) amount of immigration, given that fertility rate has been below the replacement rate since 1970 or so
  - throwawaybbq1 4y ago
    I would have gladly had more kids if I could have afforded a place to put them. Do you know what a 3 bed condo costs in Toronto? It is financial suicide.
    - pcthrowaway 4y ago
      Less than in Vancouver. I have no kids and will never have any. I couldn't afford them if I wanted them
    - badpun 4y ago
      In my parents generation in communist Poland, people had 2-3 children families in flats no bigger than 500-750 sqft. When there's a will, there's a way, and people just truy wanted to have children back then. While nowadays, it seems that there's always some excuse in the way.
      - Glawen 4y ago
        This. People lived more frugally, nearly never went on vacation, had very small cars. Now it seems everything needs to be ready before having children: big house, big car, career.
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
    Countries that have fertility rates below replacement should be encouraging immigration. Otherwise they're going to be facing some serious economic problems as their populations age.
    - LegitShady 4y ago
andsoitis 4y ago
There is more than just one issue. A voter doesn’t necessarily agree on everything with the person they voted for.
- throwawaybbq1 4y ago
  I'm an immigrant and got really burned during the Harper admin (Kenny's handling of immigration destroyed my life). That basically meant my options are Liberal or NDP. NDP policies seem to think if I make more than 200K, I am a rich fat cat (ignore that I have a freakin PhD at the cost of a delay in buying a house - effectively making me far poorer in wealth terms than someone with a mediocre undergrad who bought a place anytime before 2015). Last election, I recall thinking, how can I vote NDP if them winning means I'll leave the country. That means, my only choice is Liberal. I am so fed up with their mismanagement, that I think I need to vote conservative just to make my voice heard, and then if (when?) the xenophobes of that party come out, go liberal again. I dunno .. feels like Canada isn't for people like me.
  - throwawaybbq1 4y ago
    I only see one solution to right the wrongs of the past (with respect to the housing bubble). Tax wealth annually. Tax home sales the way the US does it. As a society, we need to acknowledge how zero interest rates were directly responsible for the housing bubble. The people that caused that should be shamed publicly.
    - owyn 4y ago
      Interest rates and tax policy have massive impacts on behavior and the overall economy. It's kind of nuts that we do live in a system where these rules change all the time based on the whims of a bunch of politicians, half of whom are apparently members of an apocalyptic death cult. Or in this case, kinda racist? "The bridge from Rinkeby makes it easier for criminals to recruit your children into crime," the party told local voters during last year’s campaign. Speaking of taxing home sales, before 1997 any profit was considered capital gains. After the "taxpayer relief act" in 1997, the first $250k was exempted ($500k if married). So that was like a big flag saying "go forth and make money flipping houses". Side effect in our timeline is the creation of infinite home flipper content for YouTube. Similar signals with zero interest rates. "Buy a house now, no matter what it costs, for tomorrow it will cost more. Oh, maybe buy some guns too while you're at it, the end times are near".

bluefirebrand 4y ago

Many immigrants come to Canada with more wealth than the average Canadian too. Or at least more family wealth.

UncleOxidant 4y ago

> 1) the immigration rate is so high it isn't enough to keep up That could be addressed by making home building a priority and by relaxing regulations like zoning. Allow more infill. > 3) The government doesn't want to do anything about it because immigration is how they're keeping down wages That's not the only reason to support immigration. Canada, as is the case with most western nations, is facing a demographic cliff due to lowering birthrates among it's citizens. Countries that allow more immigration can mitigate these demographic problems. Countries that are facing birthrates that are falling to or under the replacement rate should be trying to attract immigrant labor. Countries in that position that don't are going to be facing some serious issues in the not too distant future as their populations age.

pcthrowaway 4y ago
> That could be addressed by making home building a priority and by relaxing regulations like zoning. Allow more infill. Unfortunately, it seems like incentives aren't aligned with the people responsible for zoning and regulation, for that to happen. Incumbent homeowners for whatever reason are better organized at mobilizing around their political interests
- AmericanChopper 4y ago
  There’s another reason that local governments don’t embrace intensification, which is that they will be responsible for building the infrastructure to support it. Take a look at Jakarta where zoning laws focus heavily on intensification. Housing is cheap, but power cuts are normal, most of the city smells like sewage because you have sewage flowing into storm water infrastructure, the city regularly floods, and parts of it are sinking into to ocean because unregulated ground water extraction has caused meters worth of subsistence in some areas (the roads are also terrible, but surprisingly the city has been making very good progress in that area at least). Now you can manage all of those things, but it requires competence and proper management of resources. Something local governments tend to not be good at, and why would any of them want to take the risk? Expensive housing and bad traffic is the status quo, flooding you could probably blame on climate change, but power cuts, lack of running water and a city that smells like shit would cost too many people their jobs.