5 ms·

Misguided handout-seeking poor are not stopping construction. Rent control doesn't solve the problem, but it doesn't cause the problem either. > NIMBYsm in dis

Misguided handout-seeking poor are not stopping construction. Rent control doesn't solve the problem, but it doesn't cause the problem either. > NIMBYsm in disguise Yes, this is the real problem: the same capitalist incentive structure that pulls forward the future returns of a new housing investment also pulls forward the consequences of future supply normalization onto current owners. Capitalism also guarantees that these owners are the ones with power. It gives them the means and the motive to torpedo new development. So they do. Capitalism causes NIMBYism. Which is the real problem.

dogma1138 4y ago
Forced rent control definitely causes a problem as it suppresses supply.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  We agree that suppressed supply is the problem. You think the suppression is caused by clueless and misguided poor people. I think the suppression is caused by clued-in rich people pursuing enormous financial malincentives. Do you disagree that the malincentives exist? Or do you think that clueless poor people are a more effective political bloc than clued-in rich people pursuing enormous financial malincentives?
  - dogma1138 4y ago
    You are still missing the point, rent controls restrict supply and even worse mobility they make the market far less efficient and more expensive for the majority of players under pretty much any rent control system.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >rent controls restrict supply and even worse mobility Exactly this. People love having rent control until they want to change apartment to upsize, downsize or move, and then realize they can't because the market is FUBAR.
gruez 4y ago
>Rent control doesn't solve the problem, but it doesn't cause the problem either. It causes the problem by diminishing the returns for new construction. That in turn disincentivizes people willing to fight through the bureaucracy to get new construction approved. >Capitalism also guarantees that these owners are the ones with power. It gives them the means and the motive to torpedo new development. So they do. I'd be sympathetic to this if all the home owning NIMBYs are funding super-PACs or lobbyists to "torpedo new development", but they're not. They're just people showing up to local government meetings in their spare time.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  > super-PACs or lobbyists Presidents don't make zoning decisions. Next time you attend a zoning meeting, take a good look at the people who are most passionately creating friction (or their power base, if they are outsiders). You will find a bunch of property owners looking after their property values.
  - gruez 4y ago
    >Next time you attend a zoning meeting, take a good look at the people who are most passionately creating friction (or their power base, if they are outsiders). You will find a bunch of property owners looking after their property values. That's... exactly what I was arguing for? In the subsequent sentence: >They're just people showing up to local government meetings in their spare time.
    - jjoonathan 4y ago
      My point is that these people are directly motivated by capitalist incentives. > spare time No, not spare. Stopping new construction makes them money, sometimes a lot of money. They are expecting a large, dollar-denominated (or Krona-denominated) return on their investment of time, paid for by future renters and buyers who will not have the additional options they are so diligently trying to torpedo.
      - 4y ago

dogma1138 4y ago

Forced rent control definitely causes a problem as it suppresses supply.

jjoonathan 4y ago
We agree that suppressed supply is the problem. You think the suppression is caused by clueless and misguided poor people. I think the suppression is caused by clued-in rich people pursuing enormous financial malincentives. Do you disagree that the malincentives exist? Or do you think that clueless poor people are a more effective political bloc than clued-in rich people pursuing enormous financial malincentives?
- dogma1138 4y ago
  You are still missing the point, rent controls restrict supply and even worse mobility they make the market far less efficient and more expensive for the majority of players under pretty much any rent control system.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >rent controls restrict supply and even worse mobility Exactly this. People love having rent control until they want to change apartment to upsize, downsize or move, and then realize they can't because the market is FUBAR.

gruez 4y ago

>Rent control doesn't solve the problem, but it doesn't cause the problem either. It causes the problem by diminishing the returns for new construction. That in turn disincentivizes people willing to fight through the bureaucracy to get new construction approved. >Capitalism also guarantees that these owners are the ones with power. It gives them the means and the motive to torpedo new development. So they do. I'd be sympathetic to this if all the home owning NIMBYs are funding super-PACs or lobbyists to "torpedo new development", but they're not. They're just people showing up to local government meetings in their spare time.

jjoonathan 4y ago
> super-PACs or lobbyists Presidents don't make zoning decisions. Next time you attend a zoning meeting, take a good look at the people who are most passionately creating friction (or their power base, if they are outsiders). You will find a bunch of property owners looking after their property values.
- gruez 4y ago
  >Next time you attend a zoning meeting, take a good look at the people who are most passionately creating friction (or their power base, if they are outsiders). You will find a bunch of property owners looking after their property values. That's... exactly what I was arguing for? In the subsequent sentence: >They're just people showing up to local government meetings in their spare time.
  - jjoonathan 4y ago
    My point is that these people are directly motivated by capitalist incentives. > spare time No, not spare. Stopping new construction makes them money, sometimes a lot of money. They are expecting a large, dollar-denominated (or Krona-denominated) return on their investment of time, paid for by future renters and buyers who will not have the additional options they are so diligently trying to torpedo.
    - 4y ago