5 ms·

It should not be a major surprise that the gap between the haves and the have-nots will widen if you have a large compareable influx of have-nots, or to speak m

by belorn 4y ago

It should not be a major surprise that the gap between the haves and the have-nots will widen if you have a large compareable influx of have-nots, or to speak more precisely, an influx of new citizens with low social-economic status compared to those who already were ctiziens. In a very dispassionate perspective, it is just plain math. It is going to take time to return back to the same levels as before.

FpUser 4y ago
>"It is going to take time to return back to the same levels as before." Growing divide is universal and pending some tectonic changes in the way our society operates there is no coming back.
- xdennis 4y ago
  > tectonic changes in the way our society operates AI and/or climate change. It may fuck up the planet but at least I'm going to enjoy the housed suffering too.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>if you have a large compareable influx of have-nots I'm not in Sweden but why are we always pointing the finger at the poor immigrants? Do you think there are no native Swedes being fucked by this real estate market? Granted, having an open borders migration policy is not a good idea when you have a housing shortage. If you're struggling to provide for the locals, then the newcomers will have it even worse and won't like it, leading to more inequality, social divide, unrest and increased crime. But blaming immigrants is always a cheap shot politicians take to blame the demographic without voting rights for the problems they themselves are responsible for. "It's not us who screwed you over with inflation and housing while taking your taxes, it's the immigrants who took your job and house".
- bilbo0s 4y ago
  So true. Immigration is an entirely separate issue. Conflating it with the fact that hard working Swedes can’t secure good housing only serves to make those Swedes, who are already pissed off, more pissed off. It’s bringing the masses closer to taking to the streets with calls for Madame La Guillotine. Housing needs to be fixed asap in Sweden. (And in most of the western world if we’re being honest.)
  - xienze 4y ago
    > Immigration is an entirely separate issue. Conflating it with the fact that hard working Swedes can’t secure good housing How do you figure the two are unrelated? The native poor are competing with an influx of poor immigrants for the same pool of housing. I find it hard to understand how those same poor natives would be worse off in terms of housing prospects if the immigrants never showed up, all things being equal. Immigration is never 100% of the reason behind housing issues, but it’s more significant than most people want to admit.
    - 908B64B197 4y ago
      > Immigration is never 100% of the reason behind housing issues, but it’s more significant than most people want to admit. Considering how the Swedish government tried to hide the crime wave that correlated with it's open doors immigration policy [0] [1] [2], I wouldn't be surprised if they were fully aware of the impact but were trying to withhold that information as well. [0] https://twitter.com/KirkegaardEmil/status/1176849017566826497 https://twitter.com/KirkegaardEmil/status/117684901756682649... [1] https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2021/11/sweden-finally-publishes-new-immigrant-crime-rate-data-which-shows-no-surprises/ https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2021/11/sweden-finally-publishe... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45269764 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45269764
- suddenclarity 4y ago
  > I'm not in Sweden but why are we always pointing the finger at the poor immigrants? It's not about pointing fingers but rather that people with one foreign born parent have increased from roughly 16% to over 40% in the working age population during the last 30 years. When you become half of the population, you'll have a major impact on all statistics. People outside of Sweden most likely aren't aware and might draw rushed conclusion if they don't know why different stats are currently changing rapidly in all areas.
- sumedh 4y ago
  > If you're struggling to provide for the locals, then the newcomers will have it even worse That depends, newcomers will take up job which the local dont want to do. They will accept poor living conditions which locals wont do.
jcz_nz 4y ago
Swedish immigration has been decreasing for the last 14 years. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/net-migration https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/net-migrati.... Oddly enough, profitability of Swedish banks has been increasing for the last 14 years: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/net-migration https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/net-migrati.... Maybe you can come up with an argument actually grounded in reality, rather than the same old BS "oh it's the poor".
- Aunche 4y ago
  The two links you posted are the same.
- efraim 4y ago
  Your source doesn't seem accurate. Swedish immigration has been decreasing for the last 7 years, it is now back at the same level as 2012 but it was increasing every year since the mid 90s before that at was at its peak in 2016. https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subject-area/population/population-projections/population-projections/pong/tables-and-graphs/immigration-and-emigration-by-sex-and-country-of-birth-and-projection/ https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subje...
- at_a_remove 4y ago
  You can have your foot on the brake even as you hit the wall.
robocat 4y ago
I usually find that “obvious” reasoning is very often wrong, especially when politically contentious. You could look at countries with higher rates of immigration (say my own country New Zealand at 30% immigrants, compared against Sweden with 20%, although NZ immigrants are often middle-class from culturally compatible English countries). Switzerland has 30% immigrants. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population https://wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_depe... You can sometimes find good articles with facts that help define the point you are trying to make.
- belorn 4y ago
  It not about the rate of immigration. If you immigrate a lot of high social economic status people then the amount of low social economic status citizen does not increase. At the start of wars (or rather, the start of instability in a region) this actually occurs. The people who leave first is those with economical means to leave early, and those with higher education is generally those that tend to have an easier time to relocate successfully. A other way to see this in economic terms is to look at the cities which took in a lot of immigrants. The first "wave" of immigrants did not increase the social costs that society had. It was only in the later waves that local budgets started to become strained from immigration and where the average tax revenue increase from immigration became significant less than the average increased costs per additional immigrant. An economic paper around 2017 tried and sadly failed to explain this in Swedish news, as it basically got labeled as being both anti and pro immigration.
- rullelito 4y ago
  You think you get the same type of immigrant to New Zealand as Sweden? Please..
  - 4gotunameagain 4y ago
    Immigrants are the same all over: less cultured, less educated and poorer than the host country. Otherwise they wouldn't immigrate.

by belorn 4y ago

FpUser 4y ago

>"It is going to take time to return back to the same levels as before." Growing divide is universal and pending some tectonic changes in the way our society operates there is no coming back.

xdennis 4y ago
> tectonic changes in the way our society operates AI and/or climate change. It may fuck up the planet but at least I'm going to enjoy the housed suffering too.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>if you have a large compareable influx of have-nots I'm not in Sweden but why are we always pointing the finger at the poor immigrants? Do you think there are no native Swedes being fucked by this real estate market? Granted, having an open borders migration policy is not a good idea when you have a housing shortage. If you're struggling to provide for the locals, then the newcomers will have it even worse and won't like it, leading to more inequality, social divide, unrest and increased crime. But blaming immigrants is always a cheap shot politicians take to blame the demographic without voting rights for the problems they themselves are responsible for. "It's not us who screwed you over with inflation and housing while taking your taxes, it's the immigrants who took your job and house".

bilbo0s 4y ago
So true. Immigration is an entirely separate issue. Conflating it with the fact that hard working Swedes can’t secure good housing only serves to make those Swedes, who are already pissed off, more pissed off. It’s bringing the masses closer to taking to the streets with calls for Madame La Guillotine. Housing needs to be fixed asap in Sweden. (And in most of the western world if we’re being honest.)
- xienze 4y ago
  > Immigration is an entirely separate issue. Conflating it with the fact that hard working Swedes can’t secure good housing How do you figure the two are unrelated? The native poor are competing with an influx of poor immigrants for the same pool of housing. I find it hard to understand how those same poor natives would be worse off in terms of housing prospects if the immigrants never showed up, all things being equal. Immigration is never 100% of the reason behind housing issues, but it’s more significant than most people want to admit.
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    > Immigration is never 100% of the reason behind housing issues, but it’s more significant than most people want to admit. Considering how the Swedish government tried to hide the crime wave that correlated with it's open doors immigration policy [0] [1] [2], I wouldn't be surprised if they were fully aware of the impact but were trying to withhold that information as well. [0] https://twitter.com/KirkegaardEmil/status/1176849017566826497 https://twitter.com/KirkegaardEmil/status/117684901756682649... [1] https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2021/11/sweden-finally-publishes-new-immigrant-crime-rate-data-which-shows-no-surprises/ https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2021/11/sweden-finally-publishe... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45269764 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45269764
suddenclarity 4y ago
> I'm not in Sweden but why are we always pointing the finger at the poor immigrants? It's not about pointing fingers but rather that people with one foreign born parent have increased from roughly 16% to over 40% in the working age population during the last 30 years. When you become half of the population, you'll have a major impact on all statistics. People outside of Sweden most likely aren't aware and might draw rushed conclusion if they don't know why different stats are currently changing rapidly in all areas.
sumedh 4y ago
> If you're struggling to provide for the locals, then the newcomers will have it even worse That depends, newcomers will take up job which the local dont want to do. They will accept poor living conditions which locals wont do.

jcz_nz 4y ago

Swedish immigration has been decreasing for the last 14 years. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/net-migration https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/net-migrati.... Oddly enough, profitability of Swedish banks has been increasing for the last 14 years: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/net-migration https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/net-migrati.... Maybe you can come up with an argument actually grounded in reality, rather than the same old BS "oh it's the poor".

Aunche 4y ago
The two links you posted are the same.
efraim 4y ago
Your source doesn't seem accurate. Swedish immigration has been decreasing for the last 7 years, it is now back at the same level as 2012 but it was increasing every year since the mid 90s before that at was at its peak in 2016. https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subject-area/population/population-projections/population-projections/pong/tables-and-graphs/immigration-and-emigration-by-sex-and-country-of-birth-and-projection/ https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subje...
at_a_remove 4y ago
You can have your foot on the brake even as you hit the wall.

robocat 4y ago

I usually find that “obvious” reasoning is very often wrong, especially when politically contentious. You could look at countries with higher rates of immigration (say my own country New Zealand at 30% immigrants, compared against Sweden with 20%, although NZ immigrants are often middle-class from culturally compatible English countries). Switzerland has 30% immigrants. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population https://wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_depe... You can sometimes find good articles with facts that help define the point you are trying to make.

belorn 4y ago
It not about the rate of immigration. If you immigrate a lot of high social economic status people then the amount of low social economic status citizen does not increase. At the start of wars (or rather, the start of instability in a region) this actually occurs. The people who leave first is those with economical means to leave early, and those with higher education is generally those that tend to have an easier time to relocate successfully. A other way to see this in economic terms is to look at the cities which took in a lot of immigrants. The first "wave" of immigrants did not increase the social costs that society had. It was only in the later waves that local budgets started to become strained from immigration and where the average tax revenue increase from immigration became significant less than the average increased costs per additional immigrant. An economic paper around 2017 tried and sadly failed to explain this in Swedish news, as it basically got labeled as being both anti and pro immigration.
rullelito 4y ago
You think you get the same type of immigrant to New Zealand as Sweden? Please..
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  Immigrants are the same all over: less cultured, less educated and poorer than the host country. Otherwise they wouldn't immigrate.