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France specifically seems to have a bizarre tolerance for "pay to play" culture and limited access in outdoor recreation. Countries all around them have shown h

France specifically seems to have a bizarre tolerance for "pay to play" culture and limited access in outdoor recreation. Countries all around them have shown how strong freedom to roam laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam) can work. Those just don't exist in France. Even in the US, trails are largely maintained by volunteers, non-profits, and federal institutions.

idoubtit 4y ago
> France specifically seems to have a bizarre tolerance for "pay to play" culture and limited access in outdoor recreation. Countries all around them have shown how strong freedom to roam laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam) can work. Source? Because that Wikipedia page does not state that: no word about France, Italy and Spain, and just a little "freedom to roam" in UK and Germany. In France, you can enter any open landscape and bivouac there, unless the owner directly states you cannot. The law also forbids to build anything too near to the sea, breaking access to the coast. Private beaches are forbidden. Isn't that more than in most neighbouring countries? > Even in the US, our trails are largely maintained by volunteers, non-profits, and federal institutions. It's the same in France: mostly unpaid helpers from associations and paid workers from municipalities.
- squidgyhead 4y ago
  Right of passage laws are not part of the code civile, which is the legal system in France. Quebec follows this as well - a hiking/climbing had access removed because someone was thinking of building something. In common law countries areas, the fact that there is a well-used trail that has existed for some time means that people get to pass, regardless of whether it's private property or not. In code-civile jurisdictions, the government steps in and buys part of the land to allow for access.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
julienb_sea 4y ago
This is completely at odds with the French GR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GR_footpath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GR_footpath) trail. There are legal mandates to require public access to all coastline country wide and they are aggressively enforced. Nothing comparable exists in the US or most countries.
- swalling 4y ago
  There are more miles of coastline with legally mandated public access in the US than in France. It’s simply handled at the state level not the federal. https://beachapedia.org/Beach_Access https://beachapedia.org/Beach_Access
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    > There are more miles of coastline with legally mandated public access in the US than in France. This sentence is silly. France is smaller than Texas.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > There are more miles of coastline with legally mandated public access in the US than in France. France has 2,000 miles of total coastline (before considering access); Alaska alone has over 6,600. A more sane comparison would be share of coastline with public access, or maybe for some purposes per-capita public access coastline. But absolute miles of public access coastline is silly.
    - swalling 4y ago
      If you include Alaska, ~75% of the US coastline has meaningful public access protections. If you don't include Alaska, because people don't sunbathe topless there or whatever, it's like ~20% based on my napkin math? The original comment was "Nothing comparable exists in the US". Given that the entire West Coast and other key beach recreation states like North Carolina and Hawaii have stellar laws on public access, the root comment was simply not true.
namdnay 4y ago
The French hiking federation is a nonprofit, and the vast majority of members are volunteers. But you still have costs, maintaining these routes costs money They’re not charging toll. They’ve got an outdated funding model based on selling maps, and they’re sticking their head in the sand. But what are the other options? Go to the taxpayer? Put up advertising billboards on the trails?
- swalling 4y ago
  Yes, you use taxpayer funds and volunteer trail crews. Having done trail volunteer maintenance myself on the PCT, I can tell you it works just fine. There are also low cost permits for thru hikers and trailhead parking, which offset some of the cost without creating nasty externalities like getting people lost (which is what happens when you charge for maps).

idoubtit 4y ago

> France specifically seems to have a bizarre tolerance for "pay to play" culture and limited access in outdoor recreation. Countries all around them have shown how strong freedom to roam laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam) can work. Source? Because that Wikipedia page does not state that: no word about France, Italy and Spain, and just a little "freedom to roam" in UK and Germany. In France, you can enter any open landscape and bivouac there, unless the owner directly states you cannot. The law also forbids to build anything too near to the sea, breaking access to the coast. Private beaches are forbidden. Isn't that more than in most neighbouring countries? > Even in the US, our trails are largely maintained by volunteers, non-profits, and federal institutions. It's the same in France: mostly unpaid helpers from associations and paid workers from municipalities.

squidgyhead 4y ago
Right of passage laws are not part of the code civile, which is the legal system in France. Quebec follows this as well - a hiking/climbing had access removed because someone was thinking of building something. In common law countries areas, the fact that there is a well-used trail that has existed for some time means that people get to pass, regardless of whether it's private property or not. In code-civile jurisdictions, the government steps in and buys part of the land to allow for access.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

julienb_sea 4y ago

This is completely at odds with the French GR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GR_footpath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GR_footpath) trail. There are legal mandates to require public access to all coastline country wide and they are aggressively enforced. Nothing comparable exists in the US or most countries.

swalling 4y ago
There are more miles of coastline with legally mandated public access in the US than in France. It’s simply handled at the state level not the federal. https://beachapedia.org/Beach_Access https://beachapedia.org/Beach_Access
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  > There are more miles of coastline with legally mandated public access in the US than in France. This sentence is silly. France is smaller than Texas.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > There are more miles of coastline with legally mandated public access in the US than in France. France has 2,000 miles of total coastline (before considering access); Alaska alone has over 6,600. A more sane comparison would be share of coastline with public access, or maybe for some purposes per-capita public access coastline. But absolute miles of public access coastline is silly.
  - swalling 4y ago
    If you include Alaska, ~75% of the US coastline has meaningful public access protections. If you don't include Alaska, because people don't sunbathe topless there or whatever, it's like ~20% based on my napkin math? The original comment was "Nothing comparable exists in the US". Given that the entire West Coast and other key beach recreation states like North Carolina and Hawaii have stellar laws on public access, the root comment was simply not true.

namdnay 4y ago

The French hiking federation is a nonprofit, and the vast majority of members are volunteers. But you still have costs, maintaining these routes costs money They’re not charging toll. They’ve got an outdated funding model based on selling maps, and they’re sticking their head in the sand. But what are the other options? Go to the taxpayer? Put up advertising billboards on the trails?

swalling 4y ago
Yes, you use taxpayer funds and volunteer trail crews. Having done trail volunteer maintenance myself on the PCT, I can tell you it works just fine. There are also low cost permits for thru hikers and trailhead parking, which offset some of the cost without creating nasty externalities like getting people lost (which is what happens when you charge for maps).