4 ms·

With “unlimited time off” becoming more common I wonder how that’s accounted for over time. Some places are really explicit with handbooks that say they expect

With “unlimited time off” becoming more common I wonder how that’s accounted for over time. Some places are really explicit with handbooks that say they expect people to take “4 weeks off” a year (this was one place I worked) and others don’t specifically say a number like that. I think it’s kind of a shame and I’d like to go back to split PTO and sick time

ghaff 4y ago
IMO unmetered time takes a real commitment from senior management to work fairly which, yes, probably means some reasonable typical guidelines. I'm not a fan of limited but combined PTO and sick time though, fortunately, it's never been a real issue for me and, in fact, I've almost certainly come out ahead at the end of the day.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway6734 4y ago
>I’d like to go back to split PTO and sick time What's the benefit compared to having a single bucket?
- ghaff 4y ago
  Because, historically, you had vacation which you planned for and sick time which you did not--but which was just there if you were sick up to often fairly generous limits (or just have a lot of doctor's appointments). Being laid up with the flu or an unexpected surgery for a week didn't mean you potentially had to cancel your vacation that year.
  - Uvix 4y ago
    There's better solutions to that, like allowing carryover (if people don't need to schedule all their PTO to be used before year's end, they can have some "slop" for unexpected needs), and/or allowing a certain amount of PTO to be used in arrears. If you separate out vacation and sick time, then employees need to lie to use all of their time off.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      >If you separate out vacation and sick time, then employees need to lie to use all of their time off. This was historically mostly not a problem. People took vacation and they used sick time if they needed to (including I'm sure for the occasional hangover). Sick time wasn't "your" time to use up in the normal course of events. But it was there if you needed it. Sick time was never viewed as a benefit to maximize any more than health insurance was. Pooling them still leads to a "sucks to be you if you need to take a lot of sick leave." I guess that you can argue that's not the company's problem. But to me that's a generally un-empathetic attitude.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  For someone with a disability, having combined PTO and sick time basically means taking time off to remain healthy means you don’t get time off to actually do anything with your life. Sick days aren’t vacation for me. I’m generally too depressed or manic to function. I’ll usually drive to a park or the local zoo to walk so I’m not sitting in a chair, too anxious or tired to get up. Somehow that’s “vacation” time because I’m able to (or need to) leave my house.
  - fm2606 4y ago
    1000% this. I have routine procedures that require 2 days just for the procedures. Then a half day for travel. The hospital is 2.5 hours away. One of those days is a prep day so I don't venture to far from the hotel. And this is a yearly occurrence. Now if I have an acute episode that is a 3 day stay (at a local hospital). Which, luckily this only happens every other year or so. Basically if I take any time off that is true vacation days I have to make sure I have plenty of days on the books in case I get sick or know I will be having to make doctor appointments in the next few months.
    - kayodelycaon 4y ago
      I’m out a lot more frequently than that. If I actually took the time I needed, it would be 2~3 days each month. I usually want to take a minimum 12 days of vacation per year to attend conventions and visit people. The end result is me spending a week or more per month being barely functional. I’m at my desk, poking at code I don’t have enough brain power to understand. But, better to “work” than get in trouble for not being visibly at my desk.
      - fm2606 4y ago
        Sorry to hear that. As far as diseases go I guess I'm fairly fortunate. I don't have to manage it day-to-day but it is always in the back of my mind. If I had known in my teens and 20s I'd end up with this type of disease I'd have done drugs and raw dogged some hookers, at least I'd be able to point to a reason for having a bad liver. /s
    - 4y ago
zikduruqe 4y ago
Unlimited PTO means the company does not have to pay your unused vacation time when you leave; voluntarily or not. Remember, HR isn't there for you, it is there to help the company.
lozenge 4y ago
The idea of sick time being metered seems crazy to me, the intention is to get people into work when they're sick?
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  I think it’s more that companies want to restrict how much time you’re taking away from them.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  It gets complicated with longer sicknesses. But with something sort term like hard hitting flu or food poisoning the person isn't probably doing much work anyway. Being stuck in bed or bathroom likely means that not much work is done. And it is more humane to just give that time off straigh and not count any days on those cases.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Large companies do generally have short-term and long-term disability benefits in addition to pooled PTO or sick time. But they have some limits after which it becomes government or individual insurance.
- HideousKojima 4y ago
  The intention is that if you're sick for such an extended period of time that you cannot perform your job duties any more, the company no longer has to pay you (i.e. they fire you).
pengaru 4y ago
> With “unlimited time off” becoming more common I wonder how that’s accounted for over time. "unlimited time off" means it's not accounted for at all. You basically play unaccounted hooky at will and whether you get away with it depends on how cooperative your team/management is. Finance is totally oblivious because it's not a "benefit" part of your compensation package anymore. HR only hears about it when you didn't get away with it and management is building a case for firing you.
- dunham 4y ago
  And they don't have liabilities on the books for accrued PTO.
- no_wizard 4y ago
  I didn't mean books accounting, i meant in studies like these and others. Since the guidelines become murky, how do you really account for how much workers are taking off more broadly? It leads to an obfuscation of the data over time, I think.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    They're one in the same though. If the time off isn't on the books, it's definitely not making it into any study's datasets no doubt sourced indirectly from those books via some employment-related TLA... Understanding the inherently undocumented ad-hoc nature of the "unlimited time off" scam makes it pretty obvious IMO.
nytesky 4y ago
The worst is finite PTO, and people coming to work sick to save “vacation” time. Perverse incentive.
sokoloff 4y ago
Is 3 weeks PTO plus 2 weeks of sick time better than 5 weeks PTO per year? (I think it’s obviously worse.)

ghaff 4y ago

IMO unmetered time takes a real commitment from senior management to work fairly which, yes, probably means some reasonable typical guidelines. I'm not a fan of limited but combined PTO and sick time though, fortunately, it's never been a real issue for me and, in fact, I've almost certainly come out ahead at the end of the day.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

throwaway6734 4y ago

>I’d like to go back to split PTO and sick time What's the benefit compared to having a single bucket?

ghaff 4y ago
Because, historically, you had vacation which you planned for and sick time which you did not--but which was just there if you were sick up to often fairly generous limits (or just have a lot of doctor's appointments). Being laid up with the flu or an unexpected surgery for a week didn't mean you potentially had to cancel your vacation that year.
- Uvix 4y ago
  There's better solutions to that, like allowing carryover (if people don't need to schedule all their PTO to be used before year's end, they can have some "slop" for unexpected needs), and/or allowing a certain amount of PTO to be used in arrears. If you separate out vacation and sick time, then employees need to lie to use all of their time off.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    >If you separate out vacation and sick time, then employees need to lie to use all of their time off. This was historically mostly not a problem. People took vacation and they used sick time if they needed to (including I'm sure for the occasional hangover). Sick time wasn't "your" time to use up in the normal course of events. But it was there if you needed it. Sick time was never viewed as a benefit to maximize any more than health insurance was. Pooling them still leads to a "sucks to be you if you need to take a lot of sick leave." I guess that you can argue that's not the company's problem. But to me that's a generally un-empathetic attitude.
kayodelycaon 4y ago
For someone with a disability, having combined PTO and sick time basically means taking time off to remain healthy means you don’t get time off to actually do anything with your life. Sick days aren’t vacation for me. I’m generally too depressed or manic to function. I’ll usually drive to a park or the local zoo to walk so I’m not sitting in a chair, too anxious or tired to get up. Somehow that’s “vacation” time because I’m able to (or need to) leave my house.
- fm2606 4y ago
  1000% this. I have routine procedures that require 2 days just for the procedures. Then a half day for travel. The hospital is 2.5 hours away. One of those days is a prep day so I don't venture to far from the hotel. And this is a yearly occurrence. Now if I have an acute episode that is a 3 day stay (at a local hospital). Which, luckily this only happens every other year or so. Basically if I take any time off that is true vacation days I have to make sure I have plenty of days on the books in case I get sick or know I will be having to make doctor appointments in the next few months.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    I’m out a lot more frequently than that. If I actually took the time I needed, it would be 2~3 days each month. I usually want to take a minimum 12 days of vacation per year to attend conventions and visit people. The end result is me spending a week or more per month being barely functional. I’m at my desk, poking at code I don’t have enough brain power to understand. But, better to “work” than get in trouble for not being visibly at my desk.
    - fm2606 4y ago
      Sorry to hear that. As far as diseases go I guess I'm fairly fortunate. I don't have to manage it day-to-day but it is always in the back of my mind. If I had known in my teens and 20s I'd end up with this type of disease I'd have done drugs and raw dogged some hookers, at least I'd be able to point to a reason for having a bad liver. /s
  - 4y ago

zikduruqe 4y ago

Unlimited PTO means the company does not have to pay your unused vacation time when you leave; voluntarily or not. Remember, HR isn't there for you, it is there to help the company.

lozenge 4y ago

The idea of sick time being metered seems crazy to me, the intention is to get people into work when they're sick?

kayodelycaon 4y ago
I think it’s more that companies want to restrict how much time you’re taking away from them.
Ekaros 4y ago
It gets complicated with longer sicknesses. But with something sort term like hard hitting flu or food poisoning the person isn't probably doing much work anyway. Being stuck in bed or bathroom likely means that not much work is done. And it is more humane to just give that time off straigh and not count any days on those cases.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Large companies do generally have short-term and long-term disability benefits in addition to pooled PTO or sick time. But they have some limits after which it becomes government or individual insurance.
HideousKojima 4y ago
The intention is that if you're sick for such an extended period of time that you cannot perform your job duties any more, the company no longer has to pay you (i.e. they fire you).

pengaru 4y ago

> With “unlimited time off” becoming more common I wonder how that’s accounted for over time. "unlimited time off" means it's not accounted for at all. You basically play unaccounted hooky at will and whether you get away with it depends on how cooperative your team/management is. Finance is totally oblivious because it's not a "benefit" part of your compensation package anymore. HR only hears about it when you didn't get away with it and management is building a case for firing you.

dunham 4y ago
And they don't have liabilities on the books for accrued PTO.
no_wizard 4y ago
I didn't mean books accounting, i meant in studies like these and others. Since the guidelines become murky, how do you really account for how much workers are taking off more broadly? It leads to an obfuscation of the data over time, I think.
- pengaru 4y ago
  They're one in the same though. If the time off isn't on the books, it's definitely not making it into any study's datasets no doubt sourced indirectly from those books via some employment-related TLA... Understanding the inherently undocumented ad-hoc nature of the "unlimited time off" scam makes it pretty obvious IMO.

nytesky 4y ago

The worst is finite PTO, and people coming to work sick to save “vacation” time. Perverse incentive.

sokoloff 4y ago

Is 3 weeks PTO plus 2 weeks of sick time better than 5 weeks PTO per year? (I think it’s obviously worse.)