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What’s amazing is the BTC price didn’t hiccup at all and continues its 2023 bull run. That proves the markets are deep and liquid, and selling 0.04% of the mark

What’s amazing is the BTC price didn’t hiccup at all and continues its 2023 bull run. That proves the markets are deep and liquid, and selling 0.04% of the market cap OTC doesn’t cause a blip.

dwan128 4y ago
I believe the price of Bitcoin is completely fixed by the exchanges themselves, so it doesn’t surprise me.
- monero-xmr 4y ago
  Given there are thousands of spot markets I find it absurdly unlikely that a cartel could fix the price let alone keep such a conspiracy secret.
  - dwan128 4y ago
    I only know of Coinbase. It doesn’t really matter how many exchanges there are, its about the capital, any way you spin it they have more capital then their customers so they set the supply and demand. When they lose a lot of customers, they just burn cash to drive the price up. That’s why they keep failing.
    - monero-xmr 4y ago
      I think the fact you “only know of coinbase” proves you know very little about what you are talking about, and have formed an erroneous conspiracy theory based on inadequate knowledge.
      - dwan128 4y ago
        I don’t want to be antagonistic, but I have heard of many exchanges as I perused these forums through the years. FTX, Mt. Gox, Binance. So what probably should have said was, “It’s the only exchange I know that is still operating that I as a PNC bank customer can use, that I know of.”
  - wmf 4y ago
    Allegedly whales set the price on Binance and arbitrage bots equalize the price on every other exchange.
    - capableweb 4y ago
      And this is based on what information? Sounds very theoretical
- solumunus 4y ago
  Literally impossible.
  - dwan128 4y ago
    But many exchanges have been caught doing this already. FTX for example was clearly price fixing by using there own coins to prop up bitcoin.
    - DANmode 4y ago
      You'd have a more successful time arguing they were propping up Ethereum. Even then, what about the dozens if not hundreds of other places to trade for BTC...? And, to save you and others telling you, some time: exchanges are not the only markets. DEX is a huge factor.
    - overthrow 4y ago
      So you believe that globally, all of the thousands of exchanges in various jurisdictions all over the world are colluding, including Fidelity and every other regulated US exchange? What about bitcoin-only companies that don't do any business in altcoins? How are they managing to prop up the price? It's reasonable to believe the market price is crazy. But it's crazy to believe the market's mere existence is a huge conspiracy theory 15 years in the making. Just call the buyers irrational if you must. And don't forget FTX was an offshore shitcoin casino that held exactly 0 bitcoin when it collapsed. It's a stretch comparing that to regulated US exchanges.
      - dwan128 4y ago
        Over these thousands of exchanges relatively little fiat money actually flows. If the real value of BTC over the total market is $x and I’m Coinbase and I have > $x amount of real cash, I now can completely fix the price and the competition just becomes more parties to scam.
        overthrow 4y ago
        > Over these thousands of exchanges relatively little fiat money actually flows. citation needed So you believe Fidelity and Coinbase have been lying in their corporate disclosures for the past 10 years, along with thousands of other companies all over the world, just so they could throw hundreds of billions of dollars of their own money into a black hole, to prop up a trillion-dollar asset class for 10 years running... why? Just for fun? Do you also believe the Nasdaq doesn't actually exist?
gtop3 4y ago
I think it's irresponsible and unnecessary to suggest that the USD/BTC conversion is anything but highly variable. This market is highly fickle, prone to hype, fud, and fomo. There is also still a large international regulatory risk associated with BTC when considered as an asset. I doubly find discussions viewing BTC primarily as an asset class to miss the point of BTC. Maybe the point of BTC has changed in the last 10 years, and I'm behind the curve on this one.
- saghm 4y ago
  > I doubly find discussions viewing BTC primarily as an asset class to miss the point of BTC. Maybe the point of BTC has changed in the last 10 years, and I'm behind the curve on this one. If the price of bitcoin goes up, it's good, because it's a value store and/or a good investment! If you think it's for anonymous payments, you're missing the point. If the price of bitcoin goes down, it's not a problem, because it's a method of anonymous payments. If you think it's an investment or value store, you're missing the point.
  - thephyber 4y ago
    > because it's a method of anonymous payments Clarification: Bitcoin is not anonymous. It would be better to call it pseudonomous. The blockchain remembers transactions and transactions on the main chain are public. Once an investigator gets access to a BTC wallet, they can understand where all of the inflows and outflows went. Even without access to the wallet, some of that can be pieced together from public blockchain data (assuming a single wallet is used). My understanding is that other cryptocurrencies like Monero are far closer to anonymous. Also worth mentioning that cash is anonymous (to the extent that your counterparties don’t track every bill’s serial number). BTC’s value prop over cash is that it can be sent across distance/borders faster than cash can travel and ownership can be maintained with as little as knowledge of a few words.

What’s amazing is the BTC price didn’t hiccup at all and continues its 2023 bull run. That proves the markets are deep and liquid, and selling 0.04% of the market cap OTC doesn’t cause a blip.

dwan128 4y ago

I believe the price of Bitcoin is completely fixed by the exchanges themselves, so it doesn’t surprise me.

monero-xmr 4y ago
Given there are thousands of spot markets I find it absurdly unlikely that a cartel could fix the price let alone keep such a conspiracy secret.
- dwan128 4y ago
  I only know of Coinbase. It doesn’t really matter how many exchanges there are, its about the capital, any way you spin it they have more capital then their customers so they set the supply and demand. When they lose a lot of customers, they just burn cash to drive the price up. That’s why they keep failing.
  - monero-xmr 4y ago
    I think the fact you “only know of coinbase” proves you know very little about what you are talking about, and have formed an erroneous conspiracy theory based on inadequate knowledge.
    - dwan128 4y ago
      I don’t want to be antagonistic, but I have heard of many exchanges as I perused these forums through the years. FTX, Mt. Gox, Binance. So what probably should have said was, “It’s the only exchange I know that is still operating that I as a PNC bank customer can use, that I know of.”
- wmf 4y ago
  Allegedly whales set the price on Binance and arbitrage bots equalize the price on every other exchange.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    And this is based on what information? Sounds very theoretical
solumunus 4y ago
Literally impossible.
- dwan128 4y ago
  But many exchanges have been caught doing this already. FTX for example was clearly price fixing by using there own coins to prop up bitcoin.
  - DANmode 4y ago
    You'd have a more successful time arguing they were propping up Ethereum. Even then, what about the dozens if not hundreds of other places to trade for BTC...? And, to save you and others telling you, some time: exchanges are not the only markets. DEX is a huge factor.
  - overthrow 4y ago
    So you believe that globally, all of the thousands of exchanges in various jurisdictions all over the world are colluding, including Fidelity and every other regulated US exchange? What about bitcoin-only companies that don't do any business in altcoins? How are they managing to prop up the price? It's reasonable to believe the market price is crazy. But it's crazy to believe the market's mere existence is a huge conspiracy theory 15 years in the making. Just call the buyers irrational if you must. And don't forget FTX was an offshore shitcoin casino that held exactly 0 bitcoin when it collapsed. It's a stretch comparing that to regulated US exchanges.
    - dwan128 4y ago
      Over these thousands of exchanges relatively little fiat money actually flows. If the real value of BTC over the total market is $x and I’m Coinbase and I have > $x amount of real cash, I now can completely fix the price and the competition just becomes more parties to scam.
      - overthrow 4y ago
        > Over these thousands of exchanges relatively little fiat money actually flows. citation needed So you believe Fidelity and Coinbase have been lying in their corporate disclosures for the past 10 years, along with thousands of other companies all over the world, just so they could throw hundreds of billions of dollars of their own money into a black hole, to prop up a trillion-dollar asset class for 10 years running... why? Just for fun? Do you also believe the Nasdaq doesn't actually exist?

gtop3 4y ago

I think it's irresponsible and unnecessary to suggest that the USD/BTC conversion is anything but highly variable. This market is highly fickle, prone to hype, fud, and fomo. There is also still a large international regulatory risk associated with BTC when considered as an asset. I doubly find discussions viewing BTC primarily as an asset class to miss the point of BTC. Maybe the point of BTC has changed in the last 10 years, and I'm behind the curve on this one.

saghm 4y ago
> I doubly find discussions viewing BTC primarily as an asset class to miss the point of BTC. Maybe the point of BTC has changed in the last 10 years, and I'm behind the curve on this one. If the price of bitcoin goes up, it's good, because it's a value store and/or a good investment! If you think it's for anonymous payments, you're missing the point. If the price of bitcoin goes down, it's not a problem, because it's a method of anonymous payments. If you think it's an investment or value store, you're missing the point.
- thephyber 4y ago
  > because it's a method of anonymous payments Clarification: Bitcoin is not anonymous. It would be better to call it pseudonomous. The blockchain remembers transactions and transactions on the main chain are public. Once an investigator gets access to a BTC wallet, they can understand where all of the inflows and outflows went. Even without access to the wallet, some of that can be pieced together from public blockchain data (assuming a single wallet is used). My understanding is that other cryptocurrencies like Monero are far closer to anonymous. Also worth mentioning that cash is anonymous (to the extent that your counterparties don’t track every bill’s serial number). BTC’s value prop over cash is that it can be sent across distance/borders faster than cash can travel and ownership can be maintained with as little as knowledge of a few words.