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> 47 Great Hiking GR® trails have been brought together in a single path to create this thru hike. Fun fact: the GR trails, and hence this through route, aren

> 47 Great Hiking GR® trails have been brought together in a single path to create this thru hike. Fun fact: the GR trails, and hence this through route, aren’t allowed to be mapped in OpenStreetMap. The federation that administers them, the FFRP, claims copyright in them as a creative work. French law agrees. You can see the little red and white trailblazing marks on trees, but you can’t record that information and put it into OSM. If you want a map, you need an FFRP-licensed product. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/France/Itinéraires_pédestres_GR™_et_GRP™ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/France/Itinéraires_pédes...

DrJokepu 4y ago
That’s so weird, I wonder how that works. If I’m the first to make a map or a street or any geographic object in France, it can’t be featured on any other map, unless so license it?
- black_puppydog 4y ago
  The gr are pretty well maintained and that takes energy. So the analogy is lacking a bit here, even though I think that this seems somewhat backward and there should be a better solution.
  - bromuro 4y ago
    Italians don’t have this issue with OSM , yet trails are very well maintained.
- n_e 4y ago
  > That’s so weird, I wonder how that works. If I’m the first to make a map or a street or any geographic object in France, it can’t be featured on any other map, unless so license it? A GR isn't a geographic object, it is a sequence of trails that has been arbitrarily chosen by the author among all the possible sequences of trails.
Someone 4y ago
I would guess OpenStreetMap could record the location of each marker without linking them in trails or using the official logo of the markers (“one of our contributors saw a marker labeled ‘13’ here” should be public info, shouldn’t it?), but even if that’s the case, I can see they don’t have the resources to go and try that in court.
politelemon 4y ago
That's not fun at all, I'd never have imagined such a level of selfishness! What would happen if a well meaning editor added those trails though, is there automated removal or would OSM get in trouble?
- namdnay 4y ago
  I wouldn’t say selfish, just stuck in the past. The money they collect from selling official guidebooks pays for the maintenance of the trails
  - cma 4y ago
    Seems absurd until you look at how America is handling it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33835815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33835815
  - swalling 4y ago
    France specifically seems to have a bizarre tolerance for "pay to play" culture and limited access in outdoor recreation. Countries all around them have shown how strong freedom to roam laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam) can work. Those just don't exist in France. Even in the US, trails are largely maintained by volunteers, non-profits, and federal institutions.
    - idoubtit 4y ago
      > France specifically seems to have a bizarre tolerance for "pay to play" culture and limited access in outdoor recreation. Countries all around them have shown how strong freedom to roam laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam) can work. Source? Because that Wikipedia page does not state that: no word about France, Italy and Spain, and just a little "freedom to roam" in UK and Germany. In France, you can enter any open landscape and bivouac there, unless the owner directly states you cannot. The law also forbids to build anything too near to the sea, breaking access to the coast. Private beaches are forbidden. Isn't that more than in most neighbouring countries? > Even in the US, our trails are largely maintained by volunteers, non-profits, and federal institutions. It's the same in France: mostly unpaid helpers from associations and paid workers from municipalities.
PostOnce 4y ago
Surely the existence of a trail is a fact, and can therefore be mapped, because facts are not copyrightable in most countries? It's also apparently illegal to insult the President in France, but why would anyone outside of France care?
maelito 4y ago
> Fun fact: the GR trails, and hence this through route, aren’t allowed to be mapped in OpenStreetMap. This is misleading : the GR trails as a whole, named... but I believe all the trails are mapped, they just aren't named or continuous. See this one for instance : https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/323697041#map=16/48.3484/-4.6527&layers=H https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/323697041#map=16/48.3484/-... In the mountains, it can be a problem, more than on the coast.
louison11 4y ago
Surely the coordinates still get leaked through 3rd party apps like Strava, then become visible on the Strava Heatmap. Quite ridiculous they’d try to keep the information private in this day and age.
ada1981 4y ago
I did the GR20 last year and they were all in AllTrails.
sva_ 4y ago
That is silly, but at least you can download the GPX in a very straight-forward way ("The Trail" > "Download GPX"), which you can then load in OsmAnd.
usr1106 4y ago
> If you want a map, you need an FFRP-licensed product. On the government site https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/ https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/ one can select "Carte topographique IGN" and the GRs seem to be marked. Whether the government has a license or they are just the government I don't know. But as an end user I can use them for free. I have not studied the conditions for republication.
PaulHoule 4y ago
Last time i plotted points with coordinates from the English Wikipedia i noted the density of points falls off dramatically in France compared to its neighbors. That kind of attitude is widespread in advance.

DrJokepu 4y ago

That’s so weird, I wonder how that works. If I’m the first to make a map or a street or any geographic object in France, it can’t be featured on any other map, unless so license it?

black_puppydog 4y ago
The gr are pretty well maintained and that takes energy. So the analogy is lacking a bit here, even though I think that this seems somewhat backward and there should be a better solution.
- bromuro 4y ago
  Italians don’t have this issue with OSM , yet trails are very well maintained.
n_e 4y ago
> That’s so weird, I wonder how that works. If I’m the first to make a map or a street or any geographic object in France, it can’t be featured on any other map, unless so license it? A GR isn't a geographic object, it is a sequence of trails that has been arbitrarily chosen by the author among all the possible sequences of trails.

Someone 4y ago

I would guess OpenStreetMap could record the location of each marker without linking them in trails or using the official logo of the markers (“one of our contributors saw a marker labeled ‘13’ here” should be public info, shouldn’t it?), but even if that’s the case, I can see they don’t have the resources to go and try that in court.

politelemon 4y ago

That's not fun at all, I'd never have imagined such a level of selfishness! What would happen if a well meaning editor added those trails though, is there automated removal or would OSM get in trouble?

namdnay 4y ago
I wouldn’t say selfish, just stuck in the past. The money they collect from selling official guidebooks pays for the maintenance of the trails
- cma 4y ago
  Seems absurd until you look at how America is handling it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33835815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33835815
- swalling 4y ago
  France specifically seems to have a bizarre tolerance for "pay to play" culture and limited access in outdoor recreation. Countries all around them have shown how strong freedom to roam laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam) can work. Those just don't exist in France. Even in the US, trails are largely maintained by volunteers, non-profits, and federal institutions.
  - idoubtit 4y ago
    > France specifically seems to have a bizarre tolerance for "pay to play" culture and limited access in outdoor recreation. Countries all around them have shown how strong freedom to roam laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam) can work. Source? Because that Wikipedia page does not state that: no word about France, Italy and Spain, and just a little "freedom to roam" in UK and Germany. In France, you can enter any open landscape and bivouac there, unless the owner directly states you cannot. The law also forbids to build anything too near to the sea, breaking access to the coast. Private beaches are forbidden. Isn't that more than in most neighbouring countries? > Even in the US, our trails are largely maintained by volunteers, non-profits, and federal institutions. It's the same in France: mostly unpaid helpers from associations and paid workers from municipalities.

PostOnce 4y ago

Surely the existence of a trail is a fact, and can therefore be mapped, because facts are not copyrightable in most countries? It's also apparently illegal to insult the President in France, but why would anyone outside of France care?

maelito 4y ago

> Fun fact: the GR trails, and hence this through route, aren’t allowed to be mapped in OpenStreetMap. This is misleading : the GR trails as a whole, named... but I believe all the trails are mapped, they just aren't named or continuous. See this one for instance : https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/323697041#map=16/48.3484/-4.6527&layers=H https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/323697041#map=16/48.3484/-... In the mountains, it can be a problem, more than on the coast.

louison11 4y ago

Surely the coordinates still get leaked through 3rd party apps like Strava, then become visible on the Strava Heatmap. Quite ridiculous they’d try to keep the information private in this day and age.

ada1981 4y ago

I did the GR20 last year and they were all in AllTrails.

sva_ 4y ago

That is silly, but at least you can download the GPX in a very straight-forward way ("The Trail" > "Download GPX"), which you can then load in OsmAnd.

usr1106 4y ago

> If you want a map, you need an FFRP-licensed product. On the government site https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/ https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/ one can select "Carte topographique IGN" and the GRs seem to be marked. Whether the government has a license or they are just the government I don't know. But as an end user I can use them for free. I have not studied the conditions for republication.

PaulHoule 4y ago

Last time i plotted points with coordinates from the English Wikipedia i noted the density of points falls off dramatically in France compared to its neighbors. That kind of attitude is widespread in advance.