2 ms·

I think our current culture is biased to feel weird about killing. Historically, killing was often a form of entertainment for the public, and a matter of cours

I think our current culture is biased to feel weird about killing. Historically, killing was often a form of entertainment for the public, and a matter of course for getting the nutrients for life.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
In the past people weren't able to voice their concerns and demand better things. Violence as entertainment was used as a tool by the ruling classes as a way to enforce their power. The effects of the trauma of violence are clear and well studied. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean we can assume it had true support from the people who had no choice. Maybe people in the future will say that the people today found it entertaining to pollute the world, while we know many of us find it upsetting and wish in vain for alternatives against the strong tide of the power system in place. Another thing to consider is the old taboo around left handedness. As the taboo lifted the actually recorded rate of left handedness increased dramatically! Turns out social systems can lead to people acting in ways that are personally uncomfortable for them rather than going against the tide.
- arcanemachiner 4y ago
  This sounds like the response of someone steeped in modern culture, safe from the influence of having to kill things as part of day-to-day life. What is missing from the discussion is likely (if I'm not projecting too much here... I feel this way about myself as well) that you have a relatively detached relationship from death compared to people in times past and are disconnected from the experience of what it is actually like to be steeped in such experience. I have no idea what it would be like to live in such a life, but to assume it's inherently bad is a prejudiced outlook based only on your own limited experience. If you were raised watching public executions every week, you might be singing a different tune, and casting doubt in the opposite direction.
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    I'm not claiming that the opposite from the original claim was the truth, I'm doing the same as you and saying be careful not to project your current feelings onto a past that we can never truly know. No one can say the people of the past felt one way or not, that's my main point. The other point I'm adding on is that people are inherently varied in their mindsets and it's only very recently in history we've had such an equal opportunity to share our feelings and hope to have them heard. I would add one thing as well: In many societies there's been a great reverence given to animals and their slaughter ritualized or governed by cultural rules. To me this suggests at the very least that people have always had some sense of the gravity of their actions and felt a need to make sense of and tame their feelings by externalizing or controlling them.
steve_adams_86 4y ago
I agree that we’re biased to feel weird about it. But I think that’s for good reason. In a lot of modern cultures, the necessity of killing is less present all the time. In cultures or circumstances where it’s still essential for survival, I’d say go for it; there’s no sense in dying because Fred in Wisconsin feels good about eating lentils instead of beef, and you’re worried about being immoral by killing a goat. There are still moments of necessity where two lives can compete for survival. We will all eventually be dust, but I believe there’s good reason to strive for the pre-dust period of existence to involve as little killing as practicable. In situations where I can pick plants over animals I will every time. I have no real need to kill or pay for killing. It’s an incredible luxury that hasn’t been afforded to people until relatively recently in history though, and I don’t expect others to follow suit when they’re less fortunate or living with wildly different opportunities and resources. So, overall I think the bias makes sense. At the same time, I won’t deny that killing to survive is a reality for many and will continue to be – I suspect you aren’t immoral or depraved if your situation demands killing to live. But that’s all my insular little take on things and I know many (most?) disagree!

I think our current culture is biased to feel weird about killing. Historically, killing was often a form of entertainment for the public, and a matter of course for getting the nutrients for life.

AlecSchueler 4y ago

In the past people weren't able to voice their concerns and demand better things. Violence as entertainment was used as a tool by the ruling classes as a way to enforce their power. The effects of the trauma of violence are clear and well studied. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean we can assume it had true support from the people who had no choice. Maybe people in the future will say that the people today found it entertaining to pollute the world, while we know many of us find it upsetting and wish in vain for alternatives against the strong tide of the power system in place. Another thing to consider is the old taboo around left handedness. As the taboo lifted the actually recorded rate of left handedness increased dramatically! Turns out social systems can lead to people acting in ways that are personally uncomfortable for them rather than going against the tide.

arcanemachiner 4y ago
This sounds like the response of someone steeped in modern culture, safe from the influence of having to kill things as part of day-to-day life. What is missing from the discussion is likely (if I'm not projecting too much here... I feel this way about myself as well) that you have a relatively detached relationship from death compared to people in times past and are disconnected from the experience of what it is actually like to be steeped in such experience. I have no idea what it would be like to live in such a life, but to assume it's inherently bad is a prejudiced outlook based only on your own limited experience. If you were raised watching public executions every week, you might be singing a different tune, and casting doubt in the opposite direction.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  I'm not claiming that the opposite from the original claim was the truth, I'm doing the same as you and saying be careful not to project your current feelings onto a past that we can never truly know. No one can say the people of the past felt one way or not, that's my main point. The other point I'm adding on is that people are inherently varied in their mindsets and it's only very recently in history we've had such an equal opportunity to share our feelings and hope to have them heard. I would add one thing as well: In many societies there's been a great reverence given to animals and their slaughter ritualized or governed by cultural rules. To me this suggests at the very least that people have always had some sense of the gravity of their actions and felt a need to make sense of and tame their feelings by externalizing or controlling them.

steve_adams_86 4y ago

I agree that we’re biased to feel weird about it. But I think that’s for good reason. In a lot of modern cultures, the necessity of killing is less present all the time. In cultures or circumstances where it’s still essential for survival, I’d say go for it; there’s no sense in dying because Fred in Wisconsin feels good about eating lentils instead of beef, and you’re worried about being immoral by killing a goat. There are still moments of necessity where two lives can compete for survival. We will all eventually be dust, but I believe there’s good reason to strive for the pre-dust period of existence to involve as little killing as practicable. In situations where I can pick plants over animals I will every time. I have no real need to kill or pay for killing. It’s an incredible luxury that hasn’t been afforded to people until relatively recently in history though, and I don’t expect others to follow suit when they’re less fortunate or living with wildly different opportunities and resources. So, overall I think the bias makes sense. At the same time, I won’t deny that killing to survive is a reality for many and will continue to be – I suspect you aren’t immoral or depraved if your situation demands killing to live. But that’s all my insular little take on things and I know many (most?) disagree!