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I don’t think we’re all that murderous at all unless we’re subjected to acute, severe stresses and/or maladaptive processes (usually early in life). I genuinely

I don’t think we’re all that murderous at all unless we’re subjected to acute, severe stresses and/or maladaptive processes (usually early in life). I genuinely care about the well being of other living things and would hate to be in a position where I felt murder was necessary. I know I’m not alone. Seeing how war affects soldiers, I suspect the experience of killing and witnessing death is typically very traumatic to humans. It appears that animal processing facilities also inflict trauma on many workers, so it isn’t only killing humans that can harm us. We’re very good at killing, but I don’t think we innately like it or tend towards it outside of procuring food. Even then, not all of us eat animals. Look at the lengths we go to hide death and murder when we do it. From war to agricultural systems, we go to great lengths to pretend it’s something it’s not so we can stomach what we’re doing or buying into. The closer we get to the individuals effected, the more reprehensible I think we tend to find it. If we were truly murderous I suspect we wouldn’t behave in that way. I could be wrong — I’m very biased.

withinboredom 4y ago
Without modern agriculture + nutrition, I don’t think you could survive without eating meat (if I’m wrong, feel free to ignore the rest of this). That means you have to murder an animal to live and don’t really get a choice in the matter. This why we are inherently murderous. Sure, these days we pay other people to do it, but when you pick up a burger; that cow was murdered — hopefully humanly.
- olyjohn 4y ago
  Hmm. I don't agree that all killing is murder.
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    Certainly not. Some is merciful and – in the case of dignified deaths – by old and modern laws, totally consensual as well. Sometimes death is appropriate even if it’s not what was hoped for. It’s not an easy distinction to make by any means, but it’s a distinction that humans have believed to exist for millennia at least.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  People can live without eating animals (at least without seeking them out; getting small animals in your food is practically inevitable). However you’re right, it’s very difficult and impractical without modern agriculture. Apart from a good understanding of macros and vitamin B12, there’s not much else a vegan needs from modernity. B12 should be present in all foods too, but in modernity it’s simply too clean to get enough without supplementing. Even livestock are supplemented with it in feed lots where they aren’t exposed to much outdoor microbe-laden plant matter and water. I’m not sure how well a vegan would do if they just ate plants from a relatively “clean” field without washing the food too much; maybe they’d actually be just fine. Bizarrely enough, even meat eaters can be somewhat low in B12 in the USA. It’s a vitamin that’s generally not in excess in a lot of diets, omnivore or otherwise.
kjkjadksj 4y ago
I think our current culture is biased to feel weird about killing. Historically, killing was often a form of entertainment for the public, and a matter of course for getting the nutrients for life.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  In the past people weren't able to voice their concerns and demand better things. Violence as entertainment was used as a tool by the ruling classes as a way to enforce their power. The effects of the trauma of violence are clear and well studied. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean we can assume it had true support from the people who had no choice. Maybe people in the future will say that the people today found it entertaining to pollute the world, while we know many of us find it upsetting and wish in vain for alternatives against the strong tide of the power system in place. Another thing to consider is the old taboo around left handedness. As the taboo lifted the actually recorded rate of left handedness increased dramatically! Turns out social systems can lead to people acting in ways that are personally uncomfortable for them rather than going against the tide.
  - arcanemachiner 4y ago
    This sounds like the response of someone steeped in modern culture, safe from the influence of having to kill things as part of day-to-day life. What is missing from the discussion is likely (if I'm not projecting too much here... I feel this way about myself as well) that you have a relatively detached relationship from death compared to people in times past and are disconnected from the experience of what it is actually like to be steeped in such experience. I have no idea what it would be like to live in such a life, but to assume it's inherently bad is a prejudiced outlook based only on your own limited experience. If you were raised watching public executions every week, you might be singing a different tune, and casting doubt in the opposite direction.
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      I'm not claiming that the opposite from the original claim was the truth, I'm doing the same as you and saying be careful not to project your current feelings onto a past that we can never truly know. No one can say the people of the past felt one way or not, that's my main point. The other point I'm adding on is that people are inherently varied in their mindsets and it's only very recently in history we've had such an equal opportunity to share our feelings and hope to have them heard. I would add one thing as well: In many societies there's been a great reverence given to animals and their slaughter ritualized or governed by cultural rules. To me this suggests at the very least that people have always had some sense of the gravity of their actions and felt a need to make sense of and tame their feelings by externalizing or controlling them.

withinboredom 4y ago

Without modern agriculture + nutrition, I don’t think you could survive without eating meat (if I’m wrong, feel free to ignore the rest of this). That means you have to murder an animal to live and don’t really get a choice in the matter. This why we are inherently murderous. Sure, these days we pay other people to do it, but when you pick up a burger; that cow was murdered — hopefully humanly.

olyjohn 4y ago
Hmm. I don't agree that all killing is murder.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  Certainly not. Some is merciful and – in the case of dignified deaths – by old and modern laws, totally consensual as well. Sometimes death is appropriate even if it’s not what was hoped for. It’s not an easy distinction to make by any means, but it’s a distinction that humans have believed to exist for millennia at least.
steve_adams_86 4y ago
People can live without eating animals (at least without seeking them out; getting small animals in your food is practically inevitable). However you’re right, it’s very difficult and impractical without modern agriculture. Apart from a good understanding of macros and vitamin B12, there’s not much else a vegan needs from modernity. B12 should be present in all foods too, but in modernity it’s simply too clean to get enough without supplementing. Even livestock are supplemented with it in feed lots where they aren’t exposed to much outdoor microbe-laden plant matter and water. I’m not sure how well a vegan would do if they just ate plants from a relatively “clean” field without washing the food too much; maybe they’d actually be just fine. Bizarrely enough, even meat eaters can be somewhat low in B12 in the USA. It’s a vitamin that’s generally not in excess in a lot of diets, omnivore or otherwise.

kjkjadksj 4y ago

I think our current culture is biased to feel weird about killing. Historically, killing was often a form of entertainment for the public, and a matter of course for getting the nutrients for life.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
In the past people weren't able to voice their concerns and demand better things. Violence as entertainment was used as a tool by the ruling classes as a way to enforce their power. The effects of the trauma of violence are clear and well studied. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean we can assume it had true support from the people who had no choice. Maybe people in the future will say that the people today found it entertaining to pollute the world, while we know many of us find it upsetting and wish in vain for alternatives against the strong tide of the power system in place. Another thing to consider is the old taboo around left handedness. As the taboo lifted the actually recorded rate of left handedness increased dramatically! Turns out social systems can lead to people acting in ways that are personally uncomfortable for them rather than going against the tide.
- arcanemachiner 4y ago
  This sounds like the response of someone steeped in modern culture, safe from the influence of having to kill things as part of day-to-day life. What is missing from the discussion is likely (if I'm not projecting too much here... I feel this way about myself as well) that you have a relatively detached relationship from death compared to people in times past and are disconnected from the experience of what it is actually like to be steeped in such experience. I have no idea what it would be like to live in such a life, but to assume it's inherently bad is a prejudiced outlook based only on your own limited experience. If you were raised watching public executions every week, you might be singing a different tune, and casting doubt in the opposite direction.
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    I'm not claiming that the opposite from the original claim was the truth, I'm doing the same as you and saying be careful not to project your current feelings onto a past that we can never truly know. No one can say the people of the past felt one way or not, that's my main point. The other point I'm adding on is that people are inherently varied in their mindsets and it's only very recently in history we've had such an equal opportunity to share our feelings and hope to have them heard. I would add one thing as well: In many societies there's been a great reverence given to animals and their slaughter ritualized or governed by cultural rules. To me this suggests at the very least that people have always had some sense of the gravity of their actions and felt a need to make sense of and tame their feelings by externalizing or controlling them.