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he did not die by suicide, he killed himself. The humane thing to do is at least to acknowledge the agency of his final act

Teever 4y ago
Can you explain why this distinction matters objectively, and why it matters to you subjectively?
- mablopoule 4y ago
  Not op, but I agree with him too: it sounds off for no good reason. It's as if instead of saying "John walked to the park", the editor wrote "John was moved to the park by walking". And I also find asinine the idea of stripping the sense of agency in someone's last moment, as if it were more respectful. Suicide is a sad, touchy subject no matter how the sentence is constructed anyway. Disclaimer: I'm not a native English speaker.
- JimBlackwood 4y ago
  Objectively, there’s a recent push to try and refer to suicide as if it’s an illness instead of a deliberate act. This is because when thinking of suicide, thinking is often impaired due to comorbid illnesses. Therefor, people who die of suicide are not fully aware of their actions, agency or the consequences. Subjectively, I can’t speak for OP but personally I find this a difficult one. I think for many people, suicide is an illness. However, there’s also something that in Dutch we call “completed life”. The idea that you feel like your life is complete and continuing to live doesn’t interest you. This is often used in the context of people who are chronically ill or the elderly. Referring to those people as “dying of suicide” also isn’t correct, but in these cases I doubt it will reach mainstream media.
- hunglee2 4y ago
  Sure, I'll try Objectively - no idea Subjectively - a friend of mine killed himself ten days ago. It's a tragedy, I wish he hadn't done it but he did. It matters to me because I think this idea he was passively subjected to suicide is plainly wrong.
pfortuny 4y ago
The statement “died by suicide” is so stupid as to become meaningless. As if “suicide” were a passive act.
tuankiet65 4y ago
As someone whose a close friend ended themselves, I can offer some perspectives. "Die by suicide" is preferable to "commit suicide" or "killed themselves" because it shifts the cause from the person to the circumstances that led to the act. In many cases, suicide is not intentional, but is brought upon by (mental illness / other circumstances) in which the person sees suicide as the only way out. Therefore, "kill themselves" implies they willingly choose suicide and is responsible for it, as opposed to "die by suicide", which implies the person is a victim. This article provides a good overview on why this is the case, and I resonate to it a lot: https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546 https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advo... For pedantic readers, it's not clear in this case if the person chose suicide by themselves, or were driven to it. Regardless, I'd still err on the caution side.
- egberts1 4y ago
  That would be a good way to avoid the mental health issues that are currently in overload state. But … It won’t solve the problem by soft-pedaling with different words.
KyeRussell 4y ago
“Died by suicide” is the current closest-thing-to-a-consensus that the ‘respect via language policing’ people that actually work in mental health have come up with. This is just another case of tech people parachuting into another area and asserting their intuited objective truth instead of asking why something is the way it is.

Teever 4y ago

Can you explain why this distinction matters objectively, and why it matters to you subjectively?

mablopoule 4y ago
Not op, but I agree with him too: it sounds off for no good reason. It's as if instead of saying "John walked to the park", the editor wrote "John was moved to the park by walking". And I also find asinine the idea of stripping the sense of agency in someone's last moment, as if it were more respectful. Suicide is a sad, touchy subject no matter how the sentence is constructed anyway. Disclaimer: I'm not a native English speaker.
JimBlackwood 4y ago
Objectively, there’s a recent push to try and refer to suicide as if it’s an illness instead of a deliberate act. This is because when thinking of suicide, thinking is often impaired due to comorbid illnesses. Therefor, people who die of suicide are not fully aware of their actions, agency or the consequences. Subjectively, I can’t speak for OP but personally I find this a difficult one. I think for many people, suicide is an illness. However, there’s also something that in Dutch we call “completed life”. The idea that you feel like your life is complete and continuing to live doesn’t interest you. This is often used in the context of people who are chronically ill or the elderly. Referring to those people as “dying of suicide” also isn’t correct, but in these cases I doubt it will reach mainstream media.
hunglee2 4y ago
Sure, I'll try Objectively - no idea Subjectively - a friend of mine killed himself ten days ago. It's a tragedy, I wish he hadn't done it but he did. It matters to me because I think this idea he was passively subjected to suicide is plainly wrong.

pfortuny 4y ago

The statement “died by suicide” is so stupid as to become meaningless. As if “suicide” were a passive act.

tuankiet65 4y ago

As someone whose a close friend ended themselves, I can offer some perspectives. "Die by suicide" is preferable to "commit suicide" or "killed themselves" because it shifts the cause from the person to the circumstances that led to the act. In many cases, suicide is not intentional, but is brought upon by (mental illness / other circumstances) in which the person sees suicide as the only way out. Therefore, "kill themselves" implies they willingly choose suicide and is responsible for it, as opposed to "die by suicide", which implies the person is a victim. This article provides a good overview on why this is the case, and I resonate to it a lot: https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546 https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advo... For pedantic readers, it's not clear in this case if the person chose suicide by themselves, or were driven to it. Regardless, I'd still err on the caution side.

egberts1 4y ago
That would be a good way to avoid the mental health issues that are currently in overload state. But … It won’t solve the problem by soft-pedaling with different words.

KyeRussell 4y ago

“Died by suicide” is the current closest-thing-to-a-consensus that the ‘respect via language policing’ people that actually work in mental health have come up with. This is just another case of tech people parachuting into another area and asserting their intuited objective truth instead of asking why something is the way it is.