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> Feminism has made most women unfit for marriage. […] Men and women are not equal. We are diverse and complementary, and we need to find ways to once again coo

> Feminism has made most women unfit for marriage. […] Men and women are not equal. We are diverse and complementary, and we need to find ways to once again cooperate Maybe most women don’t like the implied(?) subservience you want to define as complementary.

realjhol 4y ago
Marriage is service. Being happy to serve your wife/husbands needs - and indeed the needs of your children is a necessary foundation for a happy home. What's the alternative? Endless self-gratification? Why bother getting married if that's what you want?
- atoav 4y ago
  No. Marriage is a legal construct on top of everything. And then it could be service, but it also could also be abuse. A healthy relationship does both. You of course support and help each other. But you also have to have the space for yourself. A person that just looks at the other will not be happy in the long run. The type of relationship your proposal results in would in my experience not last very long. I am in one happy relationship for half of my life now and have seen countless relationships fall apart over the years.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  … okay… if ”feminism makes women unfit for marriage, because women are supposed to be subservient, and that’s the same thing as mutual service to one another” is the hill you want to die on, you go for it dude. Why bother getting married, indeed!
  - realjhol 4y ago
    "Subservient" is your word, not mine - a way of poisoning the well by reframing loving service with envy and resentment.
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
      It was my initial impression, that you affirmed, but chose to reword for your purposes. I just didn’t forget the context of what you affirmed and reworded.
- smallnix 4y ago
  I agree that it is good to not be only selfish in a relationship. But the quotes from Plutarch paint a picture of a heavily skewed relationship. E.g.: > A wife ought not to make friends of her own but enjoy her husband’s friends in common with him > a virtuous woman ought to be most visible in her husband’s company and to stay in the house and hide herself when he is away. > If therefore a man in private life, who is incontinent and dissolute in regard to his pleasures, commits some peccadillo with a paramour or a maidservant, his wedded wife ought not to be indignant or angry, but she should reason that it is respect for her which leads him to share his debauchery, licentiousness, and wantonness with another woman. For me this paints the picture of a fearful, unfaithful husband who lacks confidence.
  - realjhol 4y ago
    Well yes, I had a problem with that stuff. However, I think a return to gender roles would do us good. Having two parents be forced into the work place, leaving the kids to be raised by strangers in day care is not really the "liberation" that feminists claim it is.
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      >leaving the kids to be raised by strangers in day care I am firmly of the opinion that a couple should not have children if they cannot take care of them themselves. Daycare is a band-aid to a social problem and should never be accepted as the norm or ideal.
satisfice 4y ago
Either they do or they don’t. It hardly matters. If compatible men and women find each other then our species will continue. Otherwise it will die out. In the course of dying out, people will change their attitudes and standards. Crisis situations will multiply. In the midst of crisis, I doubt life will be any easier for women than it is now. But maybe I’m wrong and it will be a feminist utopia. Good luck with that.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  Yeah why wouldn’t anyone want to sign up for “voluntarily oppress yourself for the purposes of propagating the same for future generations, or you’ll be oppressed anyway and blamed for it and any real or imagined failure to propagate it besides”? It doesn’t matter anyway right? This talk of people changing their standards only goes one way, and it’s telling. The not so veiled insinuation that women will comply by choice or will eventually be forced. There’s no suggestion that, in whatever civilization failure is contrived to justify this misogyny, men will have to adjust to recognize and treat women as humans. No luck with that.

realjhol 4y ago

Marriage is service. Being happy to serve your wife/husbands needs - and indeed the needs of your children is a necessary foundation for a happy home. What's the alternative? Endless self-gratification? Why bother getting married if that's what you want?

atoav 4y ago
No. Marriage is a legal construct on top of everything. And then it could be service, but it also could also be abuse. A healthy relationship does both. You of course support and help each other. But you also have to have the space for yourself. A person that just looks at the other will not be happy in the long run. The type of relationship your proposal results in would in my experience not last very long. I am in one happy relationship for half of my life now and have seen countless relationships fall apart over the years.
eyelidlessness 4y ago
… okay… if ”feminism makes women unfit for marriage, because women are supposed to be subservient, and that’s the same thing as mutual service to one another” is the hill you want to die on, you go for it dude. Why bother getting married, indeed!
- realjhol 4y ago
  "Subservient" is your word, not mine - a way of poisoning the well by reframing loving service with envy and resentment.
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    It was my initial impression, that you affirmed, but chose to reword for your purposes. I just didn’t forget the context of what you affirmed and reworded.
smallnix 4y ago
I agree that it is good to not be only selfish in a relationship. But the quotes from Plutarch paint a picture of a heavily skewed relationship. E.g.: > A wife ought not to make friends of her own but enjoy her husband’s friends in common with him > a virtuous woman ought to be most visible in her husband’s company and to stay in the house and hide herself when he is away. > If therefore a man in private life, who is incontinent and dissolute in regard to his pleasures, commits some peccadillo with a paramour or a maidservant, his wedded wife ought not to be indignant or angry, but she should reason that it is respect for her which leads him to share his debauchery, licentiousness, and wantonness with another woman. For me this paints the picture of a fearful, unfaithful husband who lacks confidence.
- realjhol 4y ago
  Well yes, I had a problem with that stuff. However, I think a return to gender roles would do us good. Having two parents be forced into the work place, leaving the kids to be raised by strangers in day care is not really the "liberation" that feminists claim it is.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    >leaving the kids to be raised by strangers in day care I am firmly of the opinion that a couple should not have children if they cannot take care of them themselves. Daycare is a band-aid to a social problem and should never be accepted as the norm or ideal.

satisfice 4y ago

Either they do or they don’t. It hardly matters. If compatible men and women find each other then our species will continue. Otherwise it will die out. In the course of dying out, people will change their attitudes and standards. Crisis situations will multiply. In the midst of crisis, I doubt life will be any easier for women than it is now. But maybe I’m wrong and it will be a feminist utopia. Good luck with that.

eyelidlessness 4y ago
Yeah why wouldn’t anyone want to sign up for “voluntarily oppress yourself for the purposes of propagating the same for future generations, or you’ll be oppressed anyway and blamed for it and any real or imagined failure to propagate it besides”? It doesn’t matter anyway right? This talk of people changing their standards only goes one way, and it’s telling. The not so veiled insinuation that women will comply by choice or will eventually be forced. There’s no suggestion that, in whatever civilization failure is contrived to justify this misogyny, men will have to adjust to recognize and treat women as humans. No luck with that.