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>> I'm convinced entire power plants could be retired if the world stopped using python unfortunately. On the other hand, many business and professionals would

>> I'm convinced entire power plants could be retired if the world stopped using python unfortunately. On the other hand, many business and professionals wouldn't exist :)

sn_master 4y ago
I can't find a single good argument for Python based on merit that's not at least 15+ years dated and stems from "But Google is using it". It's not the easiest syntax, not the best compiler support, performance and threading is a joke. The entire language is based on hype back from the time when the only two mainstream languages were C++ and Java.
- Swizec 4y ago
  Python has the ecosystem. That’s it. The lingua franca of data science. At this point it doesn’t even matter anymore why. Just like you’re not gonna usurp JavaScript on the web.
- 6510 4y ago
  Before an NDA send him to Rura Penthe I use to have an internet friend pedantic about seemingly useless compilers and interpreters. Quests like: use obscure language A to translate obscure language B to obscure language C. Then use B compiled to C to interpret D. A long story short, in the future the AI can just convert all our code to FORTH or HolyC or some "creative" combination of languages chosen by prophecy (read: hallucination) perhaps even Python — as a show of strength.
- codexon 4y ago
  There were plenty of other languages competing with python for the same niche such as perl, ruby, js, php etc... Python is superior to all of those just for syntax alone, it is easier and cleaner to both read and write.
  - eru 4y ago
    That might be true, but it seems to generally fall under the category of 'relevant 15+ years ago', doesn't it?
    - rybar 4y ago
      How do you qualify relevancy? Your own personal bubble and bias? Adoption and usage? Pull requests and stars on github? That might be a start. https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pull_requests/2022/4 https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pull_requests/2022/4 https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/stars/2022/4 https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/stars/2022/4 Though you may say but but alltheprivaterepos! Then I challenge you to back up what you mean by relevance and prove python is a category of relevant 15+ years ago.
    - codexon 4y ago
      I'm arguing against the point that it clearly did have the easiest syntax compared to the competition back then and not because Google was using it. Even if it doesn't have the best syntax now (which I doubt), the tooling and libraries make it a better choice over any language that have an edge over python syntax.
      - eru 4y ago
        > I'm arguing against the point that it clearly did have the easiest syntax compared to the competition back then and not because Google was using it. Maybe, not sure? My point was that both the syntax and Google using it was more relevant 15 years ago than now. (I don't have much of an opinion on the 15+ years ago thing.)
        codexon 4y ago
        I don't see any reason for it to be less true now. Is python syntax worse than any brand new languages like rust or go? Absolutely not. It's still better. Did Google stop using it? I don't think so, but I also don't think people picked it just because Google did.
- eru 4y ago
  Couldn't you level the same argument against eg C++?
- elbear 4y ago
  It's not the easiest syntax? It's the easiest among most popular languages. It uses the least amount of symbols, parenthesis and braces only for values. Some people don't like the significant whitespace, but that helps readability.
  - pharmakom 4y ago
    > It uses the least amount of symbols, parenthesis and braces only for values. is there any evidence that this makes it easier? people learn python as beginners because it has a reputation for being easy for beginners I don't see anything about the syntax that makes it inherently easier
    - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
      Anecdata, but I learned Python many years ago precisely because I found the syntax was clear. I liked the one way of doing most things philosophy, coming off working on a large C++ code base.
      - pharmakom 4y ago
        Being more clean than C++ doesn't prove much :)
        MattPalmer1086 3y ago
        Very true! At the time I evaluated other languages to learn, narrowed it down to Ruby and Python, and picked Python as I felt it had a nicer syntax than Ruby. And the "one way to do things" philosophy. This was back in 2005 or so. What other languages of that period would you say had a nicer syntax than Python?
    - whynotminot 4y ago
      What languages are you comparing it against? Python is more readable than C. Way better than C++. Far simpler to reason about than Java. Maybe Typescript is on a similar level, but throwing a beginner into the JS ecosystem can be daunting. Perhaps Ruby could be argued as equally simple, but it feels like that's a dead end language these days. Golang is great, but probably not as easy to get rolling with as Python. What else? Are you going to recommend some niche language no one hires for?
- alanfranz 4y ago
  Python is the 2nd best language for everything. It doesn’t excel at anything, but anything a software can do, it can be done in Python somehow. So, a great pick when you’ve got no idea where you’re going to, when you’re prototyping, when you don’t care about performance or perfection. I agree that for large scale systems when you already know what you’re doing, Python shows its limits quite soon (and we should add the problems with missing/slow type checking that slows down large scale systems development).
  - pharmakom 4y ago
    > Python is the 2nd best language for everything. Huh? Why? You can barely deploy it to Web. it doesn't scale perfoance wise you can't built robust abstractions The REPL is merely OK You can barely ship working code without containers the syntax is hard to manipulate programmatically Python has inertia but it's holding us back
    - l33tman 4y ago
      Well for starters, web deployment isn't "everything". Python is the de-facto go-to language for research or general prototyping, where not everyone is a programming wiz keeping track of the latest trendy new compiled language. Not everyone can compile stuff even.. :) Having said that, I've deployed two large Django projects on the web with tons of customers and it runs and scales just fine, and it's a DREAM to maintain and develop for than for example Java.. I would go so far as to say the opposite, if you haven't used Python for web deployment you've been missing out! (you lose some efficiency I'm sure but you gain other things)
      - pharmakom 4y ago
        I was talking about running in the Web browser. it's not everything, but it's an important part of everything in my book.
        sireat 4y ago
        https://github.com/pyodide/pyodide https://github.com/pyodide/pyodide is pretty amazing for running Python client side in the browser. You could run notebooks entirely client side https://jupyterlite.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ https://jupyterlite.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ The startup is slow but otherwise it is pretty functional.
- laichzeit0 4y ago
  It’s not like there’s a gun to anyone’s head forcing them to use Python. The ecosystem (library, framework, IDEs) is what draws people to use it. If there was a superior alternative that covers the breadth of the Python ecosystem I’m pretty sure no one would have any scruples in using it. A programming language and its syntax is the least interesting or complex part when it comes to solving problems. Just rattling off some amazing libraries I've used over the last few years: https://scikit-image.org https://scikit-image.org - Image processing https://imgaug.readthedocs.io https://imgaug.readthedocs.io - Image augmentation https://scikit-learn.org/stable https://scikit-learn.org/stable - ML https://pymoo.org https://pymoo.org - Multi objective optimization https://simpy.readthedocs.io/ https://simpy.readthedocs.io/ - Discrete event simulation https://lifelines.readthedocs.io https://lifelines.readthedocs.io - Survival analysis https://bambinos.github.io/bambi https://bambinos.github.io/bambi - Bayesian modeling https://unit8co.github.io/darts/ https://unit8co.github.io/darts/ - Time series forecasting https://abydos.readthedocs.io/en/latest/abydos.distance.html https://abydos.readthedocs.io/en/latest/abydos.distance.html - Basically any string distance metric you can think of The list just goes on and on.. oh yeah, some Deep Learning libraries too, which some people find useful.
  - HarHarVeryFunny 4y ago
    >It’s not like there’s a gun to anyone’s head forcing them to use Python. The ecosystem (library, framework, IDEs) is what draws people to use it Sure, but that is the gun, especially (as reflected in your examples) for machine learning. The best frameworks (PyTorch, TensorFlow, JAX) are all Python, with support for other languages being an afterthought as best. The use of scripting languages (Python, Lua - original Torch) for ML seems to have started partly because he original users were non-developers, more from a math/stats background, and partly because an interactive REPL loop is good for a field like this that is very experimental/empirical. Does it make sense that we're now building AGI using a scripting language? Not really, but that's where we are!

>> I'm convinced entire power plants could be retired if the world stopped using python unfortunately. On the other hand, many business and professionals wouldn't exist :)

sn_master 4y ago

I can't find a single good argument for Python based on merit that's not at least 15+ years dated and stems from "But Google is using it". It's not the easiest syntax, not the best compiler support, performance and threading is a joke. The entire language is based on hype back from the time when the only two mainstream languages were C++ and Java.

Swizec 4y ago
Python has the ecosystem. That’s it. The lingua franca of data science. At this point it doesn’t even matter anymore why. Just like you’re not gonna usurp JavaScript on the web.
6510 4y ago
Before an NDA send him to Rura Penthe I use to have an internet friend pedantic about seemingly useless compilers and interpreters. Quests like: use obscure language A to translate obscure language B to obscure language C. Then use B compiled to C to interpret D. A long story short, in the future the AI can just convert all our code to FORTH or HolyC or some "creative" combination of languages chosen by prophecy (read: hallucination) perhaps even Python — as a show of strength.
codexon 4y ago
There were plenty of other languages competing with python for the same niche such as perl, ruby, js, php etc... Python is superior to all of those just for syntax alone, it is easier and cleaner to both read and write.
- eru 4y ago
  That might be true, but it seems to generally fall under the category of 'relevant 15+ years ago', doesn't it?
  - rybar 4y ago
    How do you qualify relevancy? Your own personal bubble and bias? Adoption and usage? Pull requests and stars on github? That might be a start. https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pull_requests/2022/4 https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pull_requests/2022/4 https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/stars/2022/4 https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/stars/2022/4 Though you may say but but alltheprivaterepos! Then I challenge you to back up what you mean by relevance and prove python is a category of relevant 15+ years ago.
  - codexon 4y ago
    I'm arguing against the point that it clearly did have the easiest syntax compared to the competition back then and not because Google was using it. Even if it doesn't have the best syntax now (which I doubt), the tooling and libraries make it a better choice over any language that have an edge over python syntax.
    - eru 4y ago
      > I'm arguing against the point that it clearly did have the easiest syntax compared to the competition back then and not because Google was using it. Maybe, not sure? My point was that both the syntax and Google using it was more relevant 15 years ago than now. (I don't have much of an opinion on the 15+ years ago thing.)
      - codexon 4y ago
        I don't see any reason for it to be less true now. Is python syntax worse than any brand new languages like rust or go? Absolutely not. It's still better. Did Google stop using it? I don't think so, but I also don't think people picked it just because Google did.
eru 4y ago
Couldn't you level the same argument against eg C++?
elbear 4y ago
It's not the easiest syntax? It's the easiest among most popular languages. It uses the least amount of symbols, parenthesis and braces only for values. Some people don't like the significant whitespace, but that helps readability.
- pharmakom 4y ago
  > It uses the least amount of symbols, parenthesis and braces only for values. is there any evidence that this makes it easier? people learn python as beginners because it has a reputation for being easy for beginners I don't see anything about the syntax that makes it inherently easier
  - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
    Anecdata, but I learned Python many years ago precisely because I found the syntax was clear. I liked the one way of doing most things philosophy, coming off working on a large C++ code base.
    - pharmakom 4y ago
      Being more clean than C++ doesn't prove much :)
      - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
        Very true! At the time I evaluated other languages to learn, narrowed it down to Ruby and Python, and picked Python as I felt it had a nicer syntax than Ruby. And the "one way to do things" philosophy. This was back in 2005 or so. What other languages of that period would you say had a nicer syntax than Python?
  - whynotminot 4y ago
    What languages are you comparing it against? Python is more readable than C. Way better than C++. Far simpler to reason about than Java. Maybe Typescript is on a similar level, but throwing a beginner into the JS ecosystem can be daunting. Perhaps Ruby could be argued as equally simple, but it feels like that's a dead end language these days. Golang is great, but probably not as easy to get rolling with as Python. What else? Are you going to recommend some niche language no one hires for?
alanfranz 4y ago
Python is the 2nd best language for everything. It doesn’t excel at anything, but anything a software can do, it can be done in Python somehow. So, a great pick when you’ve got no idea where you’re going to, when you’re prototyping, when you don’t care about performance or perfection. I agree that for large scale systems when you already know what you’re doing, Python shows its limits quite soon (and we should add the problems with missing/slow type checking that slows down large scale systems development).
- pharmakom 4y ago
  > Python is the 2nd best language for everything. Huh? Why? You can barely deploy it to Web. it doesn't scale perfoance wise you can't built robust abstractions The REPL is merely OK You can barely ship working code without containers the syntax is hard to manipulate programmatically Python has inertia but it's holding us back
  - l33tman 4y ago
    Well for starters, web deployment isn't "everything". Python is the de-facto go-to language for research or general prototyping, where not everyone is a programming wiz keeping track of the latest trendy new compiled language. Not everyone can compile stuff even.. :) Having said that, I've deployed two large Django projects on the web with tons of customers and it runs and scales just fine, and it's a DREAM to maintain and develop for than for example Java.. I would go so far as to say the opposite, if you haven't used Python for web deployment you've been missing out! (you lose some efficiency I'm sure but you gain other things)
    - pharmakom 4y ago
      I was talking about running in the Web browser. it's not everything, but it's an important part of everything in my book.
      - sireat 4y ago
        https://github.com/pyodide/pyodide https://github.com/pyodide/pyodide is pretty amazing for running Python client side in the browser. You could run notebooks entirely client side https://jupyterlite.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ https://jupyterlite.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ The startup is slow but otherwise it is pretty functional.
laichzeit0 4y ago
It’s not like there’s a gun to anyone’s head forcing them to use Python. The ecosystem (library, framework, IDEs) is what draws people to use it. If there was a superior alternative that covers the breadth of the Python ecosystem I’m pretty sure no one would have any scruples in using it. A programming language and its syntax is the least interesting or complex part when it comes to solving problems. Just rattling off some amazing libraries I've used over the last few years: https://scikit-image.org https://scikit-image.org - Image processing https://imgaug.readthedocs.io https://imgaug.readthedocs.io - Image augmentation https://scikit-learn.org/stable https://scikit-learn.org/stable - ML https://pymoo.org https://pymoo.org - Multi objective optimization https://simpy.readthedocs.io/ https://simpy.readthedocs.io/ - Discrete event simulation https://lifelines.readthedocs.io https://lifelines.readthedocs.io - Survival analysis https://bambinos.github.io/bambi https://bambinos.github.io/bambi - Bayesian modeling https://unit8co.github.io/darts/ https://unit8co.github.io/darts/ - Time series forecasting https://abydos.readthedocs.io/en/latest/abydos.distance.html https://abydos.readthedocs.io/en/latest/abydos.distance.html - Basically any string distance metric you can think of The list just goes on and on.. oh yeah, some Deep Learning libraries too, which some people find useful.
- HarHarVeryFunny 4y ago
  >It’s not like there’s a gun to anyone’s head forcing them to use Python. The ecosystem (library, framework, IDEs) is what draws people to use it Sure, but that is the gun, especially (as reflected in your examples) for machine learning. The best frameworks (PyTorch, TensorFlow, JAX) are all Python, with support for other languages being an afterthought as best. The use of scripting languages (Python, Lua - original Torch) for ML seems to have started partly because he original users were non-developers, more from a math/stats background, and partly because an interactive REPL loop is good for a field like this that is very experimental/empirical. Does it make sense that we're now building AGI using a scripting language? Not really, but that's where we are!