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> I disagree with this part. We can't possibly make such a difference, because it's all preordained anyway. What I mean is that what plays out is in the intera

by sho_hn 4y ago

> I disagree with this part. We can't possibly make such a difference, because it's all preordained anyway. What I mean is that what plays out is in the interaction of things, and if you just deleted that assembly of stuff that is me from the equation, it would play out differently. I'm not even suggesting you that you adopt this mindset or anything, I'm just saying that for one reason or another - deterministic ones, I suppose - I end up having feelings about this that add up to "pretty cool". Everything may be deterministic, but there's still things only I know, only I do, interactions only I have, etc. The grand script that is the universe has organized itself in a way where I get to have feelings about my little stretch and space of it, and I get to wonder what's next because I can't know. For me, this is enough. I know, I write this from a position of massive privilege, because I'm currently not, for example, seriously sick, or poor, or live in horrible circumstances (which is not to say I don't have any struggles). I hope this continues to be the case. But this was never under my full control: Thoughts on determinism or not, I could get hit by a car tomorrow, or slip and fall. I still have to live with that. I get your feelings and dread, and I've been there. But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized it doesn't make a big difference. And how could it? It's always been like this.

JohnFen 4y ago
> I get your feelings and dread, and I've been there. But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized it doesn't make a big difference. The interesting thing is that I traveled the same path as you here, but in the opposite direction. For the record, I don't suffer existential dread, as I actually believe we have have free will. I was just talking about the hypothetical of not having free will. Thank you for a great conversation on this!
- sho_hn 4y ago
  Likewise! Out of curiosity, what's your (or your favorite) argument pro free will? I've spent some time on Penrose's take, etc., but I couldn't convince myself. I would still be absolutely interested in a pro argument that makes me flip.
  - mewpmewp2 4y ago
    Why would you want to convince yourself in the first place?
    - sho_hn 4y ago
      Mostly because it'd be more surprising! At the moment I can't predict I'd be convinced by an argument, but a future in which determinism turns out to be the wrong model of the world would definitely be interesting.
      - mewpmewp2 4y ago
        Like if there's some sort of ending to all of this and you discover that there's this thing called "free will" which you were judged by the whole time?
        sho_hn 4y ago
        Kind of, but my sentiment is a little more meta. A deterministic universe is easy to reason about. Of course there's a huge amount of emergent complexity we still don't fully understand, but I think in the broad strokes, I get it and that's that. But a universe with free will? All bets are off. Your comment I'm replying to is just a hint at "thinking through the implications". People are scared of determinism, but a universe built on free will is actually absolutely wild. So, if you and I agree that the unknown (e.g. the future) is exciting and worth hanging around for, wouldn't that be kind of exciting too? This is more or less also my take on religion. Nothing has convinced me of superior beings, but if it were to turn out there actually are some? Ho-ly shit.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    Well, honestly, I have never found a great argument either for or against the existence of free will. You'll hate the basis on which I believe in it because it is so terribly tautological. I believe I have free will because it appears to me that I have free will. Because I can't make a solid logical argument either way, I believe the thing that brings the greatest amount of joy to me. I never forget that there's an asterisk on this belief, though, and am ready to abandon it should an argument come along that removes ambiguity. But I also believe that "belief is the death of intelligence", and so use "believe" as shorthand for "have as a working hypothesis".
mewpmewp2 4y ago
It's all deterministic, or at least there's no reason for there not to be and there's no valid reason to believe for any reason that it's not deterministic. Ultimately it wouldn't matter anyhow, because everyone is controlled by their desires, feelings and these have developed throughout evolution to make sure that you are likely to survive, so likely you would keep going, unless the environment changes to an extent that evolution didn't prepare you for, of course. Which might very well happen, but it won't have anything to do with sentience, determinism or anything else. Anyway the point is that just try to enjoy the ride if you can.

by sho_hn 4y ago

JohnFen 4y ago

> I get your feelings and dread, and I've been there. But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized it doesn't make a big difference. The interesting thing is that I traveled the same path as you here, but in the opposite direction. For the record, I don't suffer existential dread, as I actually believe we have have free will. I was just talking about the hypothetical of not having free will. Thank you for a great conversation on this!

sho_hn 4y ago
Likewise! Out of curiosity, what's your (or your favorite) argument pro free will? I've spent some time on Penrose's take, etc., but I couldn't convince myself. I would still be absolutely interested in a pro argument that makes me flip.
- mewpmewp2 4y ago
  Why would you want to convince yourself in the first place?
  - sho_hn 4y ago
    Mostly because it'd be more surprising! At the moment I can't predict I'd be convinced by an argument, but a future in which determinism turns out to be the wrong model of the world would definitely be interesting.
    - mewpmewp2 4y ago
      Like if there's some sort of ending to all of this and you discover that there's this thing called "free will" which you were judged by the whole time?
      - sho_hn 4y ago
        Kind of, but my sentiment is a little more meta. A deterministic universe is easy to reason about. Of course there's a huge amount of emergent complexity we still don't fully understand, but I think in the broad strokes, I get it and that's that. But a universe with free will? All bets are off. Your comment I'm replying to is just a hint at "thinking through the implications". People are scared of determinism, but a universe built on free will is actually absolutely wild. So, if you and I agree that the unknown (e.g. the future) is exciting and worth hanging around for, wouldn't that be kind of exciting too? This is more or less also my take on religion. Nothing has convinced me of superior beings, but if it were to turn out there actually are some? Ho-ly shit.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  Well, honestly, I have never found a great argument either for or against the existence of free will. You'll hate the basis on which I believe in it because it is so terribly tautological. I believe I have free will because it appears to me that I have free will. Because I can't make a solid logical argument either way, I believe the thing that brings the greatest amount of joy to me. I never forget that there's an asterisk on this belief, though, and am ready to abandon it should an argument come along that removes ambiguity. But I also believe that "belief is the death of intelligence", and so use "believe" as shorthand for "have as a working hypothesis".

mewpmewp2 4y ago

It's all deterministic, or at least there's no reason for there not to be and there's no valid reason to believe for any reason that it's not deterministic. Ultimately it wouldn't matter anyhow, because everyone is controlled by their desires, feelings and these have developed throughout evolution to make sure that you are likely to survive, so likely you would keep going, unless the environment changes to an extent that evolution didn't prepare you for, of course. Which might very well happen, but it won't have anything to do with sentience, determinism or anything else. Anyway the point is that just try to enjoy the ride if you can.