4 ms·

> the people are free to vote to impose Islamic values upon themselves. Imposing Islamic values upon themselves is not the issue — or the problem.

rayiner 4y ago
The law binds the people who vote for it. Some individuals may not like the law, but that’s true of any law. You would say “the people voted to impose an income tax on themselves,” even if some people opposed that tax.
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  You have no clue about democracy. Not understanding this very point is extremely dangerous. A majority vote on a tax law is not a problem. A majority vote on killing off a minority very much is, but that's just the most extreme and obvious example. Take voting rights. Switzerland was last of all the "civilized" democracies to establish full voting rights for women. Why? Well, the current voters had to vote for that constitutional amendment, and them being all male they had no big problem with denying women a vote. In the US plenty of states suffer from a similar dynamic where politicians actually keep a majority beyond what the population actually wants by making it harder for minorities to vote. All those things are not democratic despite getting voted on in supposedly democratic systems.
- dctoedt 4y ago
  > Some individuals may not like the law, but that’s true of any law. Tell that (for example) to Iranian- or Afghan- or Saudi women who must cover themselves in public, can't drive, and possibly can't leave the house without a male relative. Or tell it to women in Texas, Idaho, etc., who are compelled to carry unwanted pregnancies to term — and then are largely left to fend for themselves after their forced births — because power-seeking radicals have democratically imposed "Christian" values about when an abortion is supposedly "murder." To be sure, living in a society involves duties, not just rights. But some purported "duties" go too far.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Iran actually has a setup similar to the US, where moral issues are removed from the democratic process and turned over to elites. Like the US Supreme Court, Iran’s Guardian Council decides moral issues in consultation with learned experts. Same shit, different religion. Saudi and Afghanistan, meanwhile, aren’t democracies. And as to Idaho and Texas—who decides where “murder” begins? Me? You? Someone has to, right? What is the rule of decision? Why should post-Christian secular humanism provide the rule of decision instead of regular Christianity, or Islam?
    - dctoedt 4y ago
      > And as to Idaho and Texas—who decides where “murder” begins? Me? You? Someone has to, right? To a first approximation, Roe got it right. > Why should post-Christian secular humanism provide the rule of decision instead of regular Christianity, or Islam? I'm certain you recognize that, if enough people feel strongly enough about an issue, the rule of decision will arise not from logic but from raw power, manifested in various forms: - elections; - mass demonstrations (Iran 1978-79; Israel of late, outcome uncertain); - strikes (France of late, outcome uncertain); - armed rebellion (Ireland 1916; East Pakistan 1971); - military intervention (the U.S. 1861; East Pakistan 1971).
    - tptacek 4y ago
      Explain why anybody would accept your premise that "Iran actually has a setup similar to the US, where moral issues are removed from the democratic process and turned over to elites"? The "elites" in Iran are the Shi'a hierarchy. The "elites" in the US are, in your formulation, people who went to college and who live in major US metros. These are not comparable sets. Elite control over US policy is implicit (one might even say supposed); elite control over Iranian policy is explicit and rigidly formalized. These are not comparable notions of "turned over to".
      - rayiner 4y ago
        In Iran, moral issues are turned over to a Guardian Council of 12 members who are experts in law. The Guardian Council has the power to overturn laws approved by the Parliament. In the US, the Guardian Council, err, Supreme Court, has 9 members who are experts in law, and can overturn laws approved by the federal and state legislatures. Both bodies, moreover, interpret the law according to the moral worldview of their country’s respective elites—from which those legal experts are drawn—even when that departs from the moral worldview of the public in those countries.

rayiner 4y ago

The law binds the people who vote for it. Some individuals may not like the law, but that’s true of any law. You would say “the people voted to impose an income tax on themselves,” even if some people opposed that tax.

bayesian_horse 4y ago
You have no clue about democracy. Not understanding this very point is extremely dangerous. A majority vote on a tax law is not a problem. A majority vote on killing off a minority very much is, but that's just the most extreme and obvious example. Take voting rights. Switzerland was last of all the "civilized" democracies to establish full voting rights for women. Why? Well, the current voters had to vote for that constitutional amendment, and them being all male they had no big problem with denying women a vote. In the US plenty of states suffer from a similar dynamic where politicians actually keep a majority beyond what the population actually wants by making it harder for minorities to vote. All those things are not democratic despite getting voted on in supposedly democratic systems.
dctoedt 4y ago
> Some individuals may not like the law, but that’s true of any law. Tell that (for example) to Iranian- or Afghan- or Saudi women who must cover themselves in public, can't drive, and possibly can't leave the house without a male relative. Or tell it to women in Texas, Idaho, etc., who are compelled to carry unwanted pregnancies to term — and then are largely left to fend for themselves after their forced births — because power-seeking radicals have democratically imposed "Christian" values about when an abortion is supposedly "murder." To be sure, living in a society involves duties, not just rights. But some purported "duties" go too far.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Iran actually has a setup similar to the US, where moral issues are removed from the democratic process and turned over to elites. Like the US Supreme Court, Iran’s Guardian Council decides moral issues in consultation with learned experts. Same shit, different religion. Saudi and Afghanistan, meanwhile, aren’t democracies. And as to Idaho and Texas—who decides where “murder” begins? Me? You? Someone has to, right? What is the rule of decision? Why should post-Christian secular humanism provide the rule of decision instead of regular Christianity, or Islam?
  - dctoedt 4y ago
    > And as to Idaho and Texas—who decides where “murder” begins? Me? You? Someone has to, right? To a first approximation, Roe got it right. > Why should post-Christian secular humanism provide the rule of decision instead of regular Christianity, or Islam? I'm certain you recognize that, if enough people feel strongly enough about an issue, the rule of decision will arise not from logic but from raw power, manifested in various forms: - elections; - mass demonstrations (Iran 1978-79; Israel of late, outcome uncertain); - strikes (France of late, outcome uncertain); - armed rebellion (Ireland 1916; East Pakistan 1971); - military intervention (the U.S. 1861; East Pakistan 1971).
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Explain why anybody would accept your premise that "Iran actually has a setup similar to the US, where moral issues are removed from the democratic process and turned over to elites"? The "elites" in Iran are the Shi'a hierarchy. The "elites" in the US are, in your formulation, people who went to college and who live in major US metros. These are not comparable sets. Elite control over US policy is implicit (one might even say supposed); elite control over Iranian policy is explicit and rigidly formalized. These are not comparable notions of "turned over to".
    - rayiner 4y ago
      In Iran, moral issues are turned over to a Guardian Council of 12 members who are experts in law. The Guardian Council has the power to overturn laws approved by the Parliament. In the US, the Guardian Council, err, Supreme Court, has 9 members who are experts in law, and can overturn laws approved by the federal and state legislatures. Both bodies, moreover, interpret the law according to the moral worldview of their country’s respective elites—from which those legal experts are drawn—even when that departs from the moral worldview of the public in those countries.