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Hm, why do you think our lives would have no meaning if we don't qualify for sentience? (Or is it the free will part? Sorry, I set us up for confusion with the

by sho_hn 4y ago

Hm, why do you think our lives would have no meaning if we don't qualify for sentience? (Or is it the free will part? Sorry, I set us up for confusion with the initial comment.) What I think is: Even if we're just automatons that lack free will, it doesn't negate our existence or the role we play in the universe. We can still be the universe calling itself beautiful, we can still have qualia, we can still be individually unique structures of matter and state, we can still make a difference in what is and what isn't in the overall structure. And nothing else in the universe will do it fundamentally better, either. At some point we're subject to the rules of the game, i.e. physics itself.

JohnFen 4y ago
It's the free will part. It seems to me that without free will, nothing anyone does actually matters. Any decisions we make, or any understandings we may develop, can change nothing whatsoever. Which makes it all pointless. > we can still make a difference in what is and what isn't in the overall structure. I disagree with this part. We can't possibly make such a difference, because it's all preordained anyway.
- sho_hn 4y ago
  > I disagree with this part. We can't possibly make such a difference, because it's all preordained anyway. What I mean is that what plays out is in the interaction of things, and if you just deleted that assembly of stuff that is me from the equation, it would play out differently. I'm not even suggesting you that you adopt this mindset or anything, I'm just saying that for one reason or another - deterministic ones, I suppose - I end up having feelings about this that add up to "pretty cool". Everything may be deterministic, but there's still things only I know, only I do, interactions only I have, etc. The grand script that is the universe has organized itself in a way where I get to have feelings about my little stretch and space of it, and I get to wonder what's next because I can't know. For me, this is enough. I know, I write this from a position of massive privilege, because I'm currently not, for example, seriously sick, or poor, or live in horrible circumstances (which is not to say I don't have any struggles). I hope this continues to be the case. But this was never under my full control: Thoughts on determinism or not, I could get hit by a car tomorrow, or slip and fall. I still have to live with that. I get your feelings and dread, and I've been there. But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized it doesn't make a big difference. And how could it? It's always been like this.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    > I get your feelings and dread, and I've been there. But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized it doesn't make a big difference. The interesting thing is that I traveled the same path as you here, but in the opposite direction. For the record, I don't suffer existential dread, as I actually believe we have have free will. I was just talking about the hypothetical of not having free will. Thank you for a great conversation on this!
    - sho_hn 4y ago
      Likewise! Out of curiosity, what's your (or your favorite) argument pro free will? I've spent some time on Penrose's take, etc., but I couldn't convince myself. I would still be absolutely interested in a pro argument that makes me flip.
      - mewpmewp2 4y ago
        Why would you want to convince yourself in the first place?
        sho_hn 4y ago
        Mostly because it'd be more surprising! At the moment I can't predict I'd be convinced by an argument, but a future in which determinism turns out to be the wrong model of the world would definitely be interesting.
        mewpmewp2 4y ago
        Like if there's some sort of ending to all of this and you discover that there's this thing called "free will" which you were judged by the whole time?
        sho_hn 4y ago
        Kind of, but my sentiment is a little more meta. A deterministic universe is easy to reason about. Of course there's a huge amount of emergent complexity we still don't fully understand, but I think in the broad strokes, I get it and that's that. But a universe with free will? All bets are off. Your comment I'm replying to is just a hint at "thinking through the implications". People are scared of determinism, but a universe built on free will is actually absolutely wild. So, if you and I agree that the unknown (e.g. the future) is exciting and worth hanging around for, wouldn't that be kind of exciting too? This is more or less also my take on religion. Nothing has convinced me of superior beings, but if it were to turn out there actually are some? Ho-ly shit.
- mewpmewp2 4y ago
  Why does it matter if something "matters"? You don't even know what the "matter" is. You act according to your emotions, desires and built in survival drive anyway.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    I do indeed. And a sense of meaning is important to help in my quest for survival. It doesn't matter to me if something is ultimately meaningless (such as the fact that in the end, this universe will cease to exist). What matters to me is to have meaning in my own life. To feel as if my existence changed something. Hopefully, that "something" I've impacted is other people, and hopefully that impact is a positive one. To have people be better off for having known me. That, for me, is real meaning.

by sho_hn 4y ago

JohnFen 4y ago

It's the free will part. It seems to me that without free will, nothing anyone does actually matters. Any decisions we make, or any understandings we may develop, can change nothing whatsoever. Which makes it all pointless. > we can still make a difference in what is and what isn't in the overall structure. I disagree with this part. We can't possibly make such a difference, because it's all preordained anyway.

sho_hn 4y ago
> I disagree with this part. We can't possibly make such a difference, because it's all preordained anyway. What I mean is that what plays out is in the interaction of things, and if you just deleted that assembly of stuff that is me from the equation, it would play out differently. I'm not even suggesting you that you adopt this mindset or anything, I'm just saying that for one reason or another - deterministic ones, I suppose - I end up having feelings about this that add up to "pretty cool". Everything may be deterministic, but there's still things only I know, only I do, interactions only I have, etc. The grand script that is the universe has organized itself in a way where I get to have feelings about my little stretch and space of it, and I get to wonder what's next because I can't know. For me, this is enough. I know, I write this from a position of massive privilege, because I'm currently not, for example, seriously sick, or poor, or live in horrible circumstances (which is not to say I don't have any struggles). I hope this continues to be the case. But this was never under my full control: Thoughts on determinism or not, I could get hit by a car tomorrow, or slip and fall. I still have to live with that. I get your feelings and dread, and I've been there. But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized it doesn't make a big difference. And how could it? It's always been like this.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > I get your feelings and dread, and I've been there. But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized it doesn't make a big difference. The interesting thing is that I traveled the same path as you here, but in the opposite direction. For the record, I don't suffer existential dread, as I actually believe we have have free will. I was just talking about the hypothetical of not having free will. Thank you for a great conversation on this!
  - sho_hn 4y ago
    Likewise! Out of curiosity, what's your (or your favorite) argument pro free will? I've spent some time on Penrose's take, etc., but I couldn't convince myself. I would still be absolutely interested in a pro argument that makes me flip.
    - mewpmewp2 4y ago
      Why would you want to convince yourself in the first place?
      - sho_hn 4y ago
        Mostly because it'd be more surprising! At the moment I can't predict I'd be convinced by an argument, but a future in which determinism turns out to be the wrong model of the world would definitely be interesting.
        mewpmewp2 4y ago
        Like if there's some sort of ending to all of this and you discover that there's this thing called "free will" which you were judged by the whole time?
        sho_hn 4y ago
        Kind of, but my sentiment is a little more meta. A deterministic universe is easy to reason about. Of course there's a huge amount of emergent complexity we still don't fully understand, but I think in the broad strokes, I get it and that's that. But a universe with free will? All bets are off. Your comment I'm replying to is just a hint at "thinking through the implications". People are scared of determinism, but a universe built on free will is actually absolutely wild. So, if you and I agree that the unknown (e.g. the future) is exciting and worth hanging around for, wouldn't that be kind of exciting too? This is more or less also my take on religion. Nothing has convinced me of superior beings, but if it were to turn out there actually are some? Ho-ly shit.
mewpmewp2 4y ago
Why does it matter if something "matters"? You don't even know what the "matter" is. You act according to your emotions, desires and built in survival drive anyway.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  I do indeed. And a sense of meaning is important to help in my quest for survival. It doesn't matter to me if something is ultimately meaningless (such as the fact that in the end, this universe will cease to exist). What matters to me is to have meaning in my own life. To feel as if my existence changed something. Hopefully, that "something" I've impacted is other people, and hopefully that impact is a positive one. To have people be better off for having known me. That, for me, is real meaning.