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> He's probably ignoring the externalities like the gas leaks on the way to your house Where I live (Sweden) and come from (the Netherlands) gas leaks tend to

> He's probably ignoring the externalities like the gas leaks on the way to your house Where I live (Sweden) and come from (the Netherlands) gas leaks tend to get fixed since they are both costly as well as dangerous. Let's assume that this is not a real issue unless you have some data which points out the opposite. > the power plant being able to have a huge scrubber that reduces emissions We're not talking about heating a house using coal - which is where those scrubbers come in - but with gas. Gas fired power plants do not need scrubbers since they do not produce fly ash or sulphurous oxides, nor do gas-fired heaters. Total systems efficiency for a single-cycle gas-fired power plant lies between 32% to 38% for simple cycle gas turbines, most of those in the USA are closer to the first number. Combined cycle gas/steam turbines can run at up to 60% total efficiency which is about as high as it is possible to get using a thermal power generator [1]. The efficiency of gas-fired heaters lies somewhere between 70% and 95% or more, the upper range is common here in Europe. A good indicator for the efficiency is the fact that these appliances often use plastic flue pipes which is made possible by the fact that flue gas temperatures lie below 70°C. The effective COP for air/air heat pumps is highly dependent on the temperature difference between the hot and cold side, the colder it is outside the lower the efficiency. I don't know where the original poster lives so it is hard to calculate the expected efficiency. If it is anywhere where the temperature goes down below zero (Celcius) it is more than likely that the salesman was right since the effective COP ends up below 2 - and goes down to 1 or lower around -15°C to -30°C (depending on the model heat pump used, the amount of moisture in the air (moist air condenses and freezes on the evaporator which requires a thaw cycle which markedly lowers the efficiency). [1] https://www.brighthubengineering.com/power-plants/72369-compare-the-efficiency-of-different-power-plants/ https://www.brighthubengineering.com/power-plants/72369-comp...

fancy_pantser 4y ago
> Let's assume that this is not a real issue unless you have some data which points out the opposite. US-wide estimates are 1.4% and recent studies suggest as high as 9% in tested areas. https://news.stanford.edu/2022/03/24/methane-leaks-much-worse-estimates-fix-available/ https://news.stanford.edu/2022/03/24/methane-leaks-much-wors...
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  OK, those are production leaks, not transport leaks. I don't know how high production leaks are here in Europe but I assume them to be lower due to stringent rules. There is also quite a bit of natural methane leakage from swamps, wetlands and other similar sources as well as from agriculture. ESA has a satellite which can measure this [1], it shows methane leakage from landfills can also be quite large [2]. [1] https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/Copernicus/Sentinel-5P/Mapping_high-resolution_methane_emissions_from_space https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/Coperni... [2] https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/Satellites_detect_large_methane_emissions_from_Madrid_landfills https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/Satelli...
  - pinkorchid 4y ago
    All those leaks contribute to the externalities of natural gas. I don't know the relative contributions between extraction and distribution, but leaks in the distribution network are also a problem in Europe [1]. It's certainly true that extraction leaks can be so substantial as to make shale gas worse than coal [2] (twice worse over 20 years!). Landfills (and agriculture) are big sources of methane. I think this is a pretty good start to figure out what the EU is doing to reduce all sources [3]. [1] https://www.uu.nl/en/publication/scientists-discover-more-methane-leakages-in-utrechts-gas-distribution-network https://www.uu.nl/en/publication/scientists-discover-more-me... [2] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-011-0061-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-011-0061-5 [3] https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/12/19/member-states-agree-on-new-rules-to-slash-methane-emissions/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022...
mywittyname 4y ago
The USEPA claims about 1.4-2.3% of natural gas is lost to leaks [0]. American is full of leaky gas pipelines. It's one of the major reasons people oppose to large gas pipelines going near where they live: they are an ecological disaster waiting to happen. [0] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/the-u-s-natural-gas-industry-is-leaking-way-more-methane-than-previously-thought https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/the-u-s-natural-gas-ind...
- jjcon 4y ago
  That is the pipeline... that is not the thing that goes to your house lol. Not to mention that a couple percent doesn't even come close to changing the math given above

fancy_pantser 4y ago

> Let's assume that this is not a real issue unless you have some data which points out the opposite. US-wide estimates are 1.4% and recent studies suggest as high as 9% in tested areas. https://news.stanford.edu/2022/03/24/methane-leaks-much-worse-estimates-fix-available/ https://news.stanford.edu/2022/03/24/methane-leaks-much-wors...

the_third_wave 4y ago
OK, those are production leaks, not transport leaks. I don't know how high production leaks are here in Europe but I assume them to be lower due to stringent rules. There is also quite a bit of natural methane leakage from swamps, wetlands and other similar sources as well as from agriculture. ESA has a satellite which can measure this [1], it shows methane leakage from landfills can also be quite large [2]. [1] https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/Copernicus/Sentinel-5P/Mapping_high-resolution_methane_emissions_from_space https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/Coperni... [2] https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/Satellites_detect_large_methane_emissions_from_Madrid_landfills https://www.esa.int/Applications/Observing_the_Earth/Satelli...
- pinkorchid 4y ago
  All those leaks contribute to the externalities of natural gas. I don't know the relative contributions between extraction and distribution, but leaks in the distribution network are also a problem in Europe [1]. It's certainly true that extraction leaks can be so substantial as to make shale gas worse than coal [2] (twice worse over 20 years!). Landfills (and agriculture) are big sources of methane. I think this is a pretty good start to figure out what the EU is doing to reduce all sources [3]. [1] https://www.uu.nl/en/publication/scientists-discover-more-methane-leakages-in-utrechts-gas-distribution-network https://www.uu.nl/en/publication/scientists-discover-more-me... [2] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-011-0061-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-011-0061-5 [3] https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/12/19/member-states-agree-on-new-rules-to-slash-methane-emissions/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022...

mywittyname 4y ago

The USEPA claims about 1.4-2.3% of natural gas is lost to leaks [0]. American is full of leaky gas pipelines. It's one of the major reasons people oppose to large gas pipelines going near where they live: they are an ecological disaster waiting to happen. [0] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/the-u-s-natural-gas-industry-is-leaking-way-more-methane-than-previously-thought https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/the-u-s-natural-gas-ind...

jjcon 4y ago
That is the pipeline... that is not the thing that goes to your house lol. Not to mention that a couple percent doesn't even come close to changing the math given above