5 ms·

Thankfully, this existential dread is already a subset of the terror that comes from eliminating free will, which makes it not matter in the slightest, which in

by sho_hn 4y ago

Thankfully, this existential dread is already a subset of the terror that comes from eliminating free will, which makes it not matter in the slightest, which in turn is a subset of superdeterminism! :-) We'll have to figure out how to go on regardless.

JohnFen 4y ago
> We'll have to figure out how to go on regardless. Why? It's a serious question. What would be the point of going on? Why would we have to figure out how to do it?
- sho_hn 4y ago
  > What would be the point of going on? For me personally it's that the future is unknowable, at least with our current understanding of physics. So yes, everything may be pre-determined, including what will happen to me, but I can't predict it with any confidence. I will still get to experience it and I get to have qualia about it. I get to participate. The little pouch of structure in the universe that is tagged "me" is along for the ride, and also a factor in it all. I've also known for many, many years that one day I will be dead. There's plenty of existential dread in death, yet I continue my existence building up to it. Even if I had free will: Still dead. Offspring and future generations of Earth? Well, ultimate heat death of the universe. There's many ways to call it all pointless. The only thing that we seem to have going for us is experience while it lasts. Maybe we still discover an escape hatch along the way.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    > I will still get to experience it Perhaps, but then none of it has meaning. Personally, I'm not really interested in having meaningless experiences. > There's plenty of existential dread in death, yet I continue my existence building up to it. But that's an entirely different thing. I am of the opinion that it's death that helps give life meaning. I have no existential dread about it whatsoever. A life without meaning, however, seems like a pointless waste of time to me.
    - sho_hn 4y ago
      Hm, why do you think our lives would have no meaning if we don't qualify for sentience? (Or is it the free will part? Sorry, I set us up for confusion with the initial comment.) What I think is: Even if we're just automatons that lack free will, it doesn't negate our existence or the role we play in the universe. We can still be the universe calling itself beautiful, we can still have qualia, we can still be individually unique structures of matter and state, we can still make a difference in what is and what isn't in the overall structure. And nothing else in the universe will do it fundamentally better, either. At some point we're subject to the rules of the game, i.e. physics itself.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        It's the free will part. It seems to me that without free will, nothing anyone does actually matters. Any decisions we make, or any understandings we may develop, can change nothing whatsoever. Which makes it all pointless. > we can still make a difference in what is and what isn't in the overall structure. I disagree with this part. We can't possibly make such a difference, because it's all preordained anyway.
        sho_hn 4y ago
        > I disagree with this part. We can't possibly make such a difference, because it's all preordained anyway. What I mean is that what plays out is in the interaction of things, and if you just deleted that assembly of stuff that is me from the equation, it would play out differently. I'm not even suggesting you that you adopt this mindset or anything, I'm just saying that for one reason or another - deterministic ones, I suppose - I end up having feelings about this that add up to "pretty cool". Everything may be deterministic, but there's still things only I know, only I do, interactions only I have, etc. The grand script that is the universe has organized itself in a way where I get to have feelings about my little stretch and space of it, and I get to wonder what's next because I can't know. For me, this is enough. I know, I write this from a position of massive privilege, because I'm currently not, for example, seriously sick, or poor, or live in horrible circumstances (which is not to say I don't have any struggles). I hope this continues to be the case. But this was never under my full control: Thoughts on determinism or not, I could get hit by a car tomorrow, or slip and fall. I still have to live with that. I get your feelings and dread, and I've been there. But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized it doesn't make a big difference. And how could it? It's always been like this.
  - mewpmewp2 4y ago
    > I've also known for many, many years that one day I will be dead. There's plenty of existential dread in death, yet I continue my existence building up to it. How old are you? Because maybe we can reach immortality, but probably only if you are positioned properly for that. Anyway, for me the main drive is also curiosity on what is going to happen in the future. It's like this crazy story I want to know how it ends. I don't want to die, because I want to know what happens. Dying would be like going to sleep on a cliffhanger. I'll just prefer to binge rather than sleep.
    - sho_hn 4y ago
      37, not sure which part of the probability spectrum on immortality by technical means that puts me in :-)
- mewpmewp2 4y ago
  > What would be the point of going on? Why would we have to figure out how to do it? I mean, I'm just really curious what is going to happen, and what's the secret behind all that, behind the universe, and I hope to live as long as there's this to discover. That is my natural drive though. I don't really care at all whether I'm sentient, conscious or special in any given way. There's no reason for me to be. I just have this built in curiosity drive. It was not chosen by me, but it is there, and I act to engage the drive, because it makes me feel good and otherwise it makes me feel bad, nothing much more than some sort of algorithm. And we don't need to be more than algorithms.

by sho_hn 4y ago

JohnFen 4y ago

> We'll have to figure out how to go on regardless. Why? It's a serious question. What would be the point of going on? Why would we have to figure out how to do it?

sho_hn 4y ago
> What would be the point of going on? For me personally it's that the future is unknowable, at least with our current understanding of physics. So yes, everything may be pre-determined, including what will happen to me, but I can't predict it with any confidence. I will still get to experience it and I get to have qualia about it. I get to participate. The little pouch of structure in the universe that is tagged "me" is along for the ride, and also a factor in it all. I've also known for many, many years that one day I will be dead. There's plenty of existential dread in death, yet I continue my existence building up to it. Even if I had free will: Still dead. Offspring and future generations of Earth? Well, ultimate heat death of the universe. There's many ways to call it all pointless. The only thing that we seem to have going for us is experience while it lasts. Maybe we still discover an escape hatch along the way.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > I will still get to experience it Perhaps, but then none of it has meaning. Personally, I'm not really interested in having meaningless experiences. > There's plenty of existential dread in death, yet I continue my existence building up to it. But that's an entirely different thing. I am of the opinion that it's death that helps give life meaning. I have no existential dread about it whatsoever. A life without meaning, however, seems like a pointless waste of time to me.
  - sho_hn 4y ago
    Hm, why do you think our lives would have no meaning if we don't qualify for sentience? (Or is it the free will part? Sorry, I set us up for confusion with the initial comment.) What I think is: Even if we're just automatons that lack free will, it doesn't negate our existence or the role we play in the universe. We can still be the universe calling itself beautiful, we can still have qualia, we can still be individually unique structures of matter and state, we can still make a difference in what is and what isn't in the overall structure. And nothing else in the universe will do it fundamentally better, either. At some point we're subject to the rules of the game, i.e. physics itself.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      It's the free will part. It seems to me that without free will, nothing anyone does actually matters. Any decisions we make, or any understandings we may develop, can change nothing whatsoever. Which makes it all pointless. > we can still make a difference in what is and what isn't in the overall structure. I disagree with this part. We can't possibly make such a difference, because it's all preordained anyway.
      - sho_hn 4y ago
        > I disagree with this part. We can't possibly make such a difference, because it's all preordained anyway. What I mean is that what plays out is in the interaction of things, and if you just deleted that assembly of stuff that is me from the equation, it would play out differently. I'm not even suggesting you that you adopt this mindset or anything, I'm just saying that for one reason or another - deterministic ones, I suppose - I end up having feelings about this that add up to "pretty cool". Everything may be deterministic, but there's still things only I know, only I do, interactions only I have, etc. The grand script that is the universe has organized itself in a way where I get to have feelings about my little stretch and space of it, and I get to wonder what's next because I can't know. For me, this is enough. I know, I write this from a position of massive privilege, because I'm currently not, for example, seriously sick, or poor, or live in horrible circumstances (which is not to say I don't have any struggles). I hope this continues to be the case. But this was never under my full control: Thoughts on determinism or not, I could get hit by a car tomorrow, or slip and fall. I still have to live with that. I get your feelings and dread, and I've been there. But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized it doesn't make a big difference. And how could it? It's always been like this.
- mewpmewp2 4y ago
  > I've also known for many, many years that one day I will be dead. There's plenty of existential dread in death, yet I continue my existence building up to it. How old are you? Because maybe we can reach immortality, but probably only if you are positioned properly for that. Anyway, for me the main drive is also curiosity on what is going to happen in the future. It's like this crazy story I want to know how it ends. I don't want to die, because I want to know what happens. Dying would be like going to sleep on a cliffhanger. I'll just prefer to binge rather than sleep.
  - sho_hn 4y ago
    37, not sure which part of the probability spectrum on immortality by technical means that puts me in :-)
mewpmewp2 4y ago
> What would be the point of going on? Why would we have to figure out how to do it? I mean, I'm just really curious what is going to happen, and what's the secret behind all that, behind the universe, and I hope to live as long as there's this to discover. That is my natural drive though. I don't really care at all whether I'm sentient, conscious or special in any given way. There's no reason for me to be. I just have this built in curiosity drive. It was not chosen by me, but it is there, and I act to engage the drive, because it makes me feel good and otherwise it makes me feel bad, nothing much more than some sort of algorithm. And we don't need to be more than algorithms.