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> The philosophical zombie is an excellent example of the extent of post shifting we're capable of. I was with you until here. That has nothing to do with this

> The philosophical zombie is an excellent example of the extent of post shifting we're capable of. I was with you until here. That has nothing to do with this. That argument is about separating intelligence from having a subjective experience, not moving goalposts for intelligence.

famouswaffles 4y ago
It's a tangential relation but it's a relation. I don't think i would say it has nothing to do with it. Goal posts shifting in the field of machine learning isn't just about the posts for defining intelligence. It's broader and deeper than that. I brought it up because i thought it fit the point i was driving at. Humans/people don't see subjective experience. I don't know that you're actually having some subjective experience. I'm working on what i see and results, same as you. If you have two unknown equations but one condition - these 2 equations return the same output with the same input. well, then any mathematician would tell you the obvious - the 2 equations are equal or equivalent. it doesn't actually matter what they look like. This is just an illustration. The point i'm driving at here is that true distinction shows in results. It's a concept that's pretty easy to understand. Yet turn to artificial intelligence and it just seems to break down. People making weird assertions all over the place not because they have been warranted in any empirical, qualitative or quantitative manner but because there seems to be this inability to engage with results...like we do with each other. when i show the output that clearly demonstrates reasoning and understand, the arguments quickly shift to "it's not real understanding!" and it's honestly very bizarre. What kind of meaningful distinction can't show itself, can't be tested for ? If it does exist then it's not meaningful. I think that the same reason people shift posts for intelligence is the same reason people fear the philosophical zombie. idk maybe i'm rambling at this point but just my thoughts.
- YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
  >> when i show the output that clearly demonstrates reasoning and understand, the arguments quickly shift to "it's not real understanding!" and it's honestly very bizarre. What kind of meaningful distinction can't show itself, can't be tested for? If it does exist then it's not meaningful. I agree with you totally. Here's some output that clearly demonstrates reasoning and understanding: All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore, Socrates is mortal. I just copy-pasted that from wikipedia. Copy/paste understands syllogisms! Explain that!
  - famouswaffles 4y ago
    Is this your argument? Really? I'm Just surprised honestly. All of the straw man arguments, this is the best you can come up with? Man do better. GPT-4 would have a better response than this.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
      I don't understand your derision. Where is the "straw man"? I showed you "output that clearly demonstrates reasoning and understand[ing]" exactly as you said. How do you explain it, if not by saying it understands, and it can reason? Are you really just going to cop out and avoid engaging seriously with my question? How do you explain the output above except as reasoning and understanding?
      - famouswaffles 4y ago
        If you don't see anything up with the nonsensical paragraph you typed then there isn't enough intelligence to continue this conversation. Maybe Ask GPT-4 for help. It has the patience I don't. Either way, this is the end for me. Believe whatever you want, it's none of my business really. Good day.
        YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
        If it's so easy to see what's up with what I wrote above, then it should be pretty easy to say what's up with it. You've already written 87 words to dismiss it, but not a single word to say why you dismiss it. I think that's because you have no idea how to explain why something is, or isn't understanding, or reasoning. In your comment above you accuse people of not being able to tell you clearly why GPT-4 is not reasoning or understanding, but you, yourself, can't even say clearly why copy/paste isn't. You have no clue how to do that. If you can't even say why something isn't reasoning, or understanding, then how can you say that something is? Do you even know what you're talking about, when you're talking about "reasoning" and "understanding"?

famouswaffles 4y ago

It's a tangential relation but it's a relation. I don't think i would say it has nothing to do with it. Goal posts shifting in the field of machine learning isn't just about the posts for defining intelligence. It's broader and deeper than that. I brought it up because i thought it fit the point i was driving at. Humans/people don't see subjective experience. I don't know that you're actually having some subjective experience. I'm working on what i see and results, same as you. If you have two unknown equations but one condition - these 2 equations return the same output with the same input. well, then any mathematician would tell you the obvious - the 2 equations are equal or equivalent. it doesn't actually matter what they look like. This is just an illustration. The point i'm driving at here is that true distinction shows in results. It's a concept that's pretty easy to understand. Yet turn to artificial intelligence and it just seems to break down. People making weird assertions all over the place not because they have been warranted in any empirical, qualitative or quantitative manner but because there seems to be this inability to engage with results...like we do with each other. when i show the output that clearly demonstrates reasoning and understand, the arguments quickly shift to "it's not real understanding!" and it's honestly very bizarre. What kind of meaningful distinction can't show itself, can't be tested for ? If it does exist then it's not meaningful. I think that the same reason people shift posts for intelligence is the same reason people fear the philosophical zombie. idk maybe i'm rambling at this point but just my thoughts.

YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
>> when i show the output that clearly demonstrates reasoning and understand, the arguments quickly shift to "it's not real understanding!" and it's honestly very bizarre. What kind of meaningful distinction can't show itself, can't be tested for? If it does exist then it's not meaningful. I agree with you totally. Here's some output that clearly demonstrates reasoning and understanding: All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore, Socrates is mortal. I just copy-pasted that from wikipedia. Copy/paste understands syllogisms! Explain that!
- famouswaffles 4y ago
  Is this your argument? Really? I'm Just surprised honestly. All of the straw man arguments, this is the best you can come up with? Man do better. GPT-4 would have a better response than this.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
    I don't understand your derision. Where is the "straw man"? I showed you "output that clearly demonstrates reasoning and understand[ing]" exactly as you said. How do you explain it, if not by saying it understands, and it can reason? Are you really just going to cop out and avoid engaging seriously with my question? How do you explain the output above except as reasoning and understanding?
    - famouswaffles 4y ago
      If you don't see anything up with the nonsensical paragraph you typed then there isn't enough intelligence to continue this conversation. Maybe Ask GPT-4 for help. It has the patience I don't. Either way, this is the end for me. Believe whatever you want, it's none of my business really. Good day.
      - YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
        If it's so easy to see what's up with what I wrote above, then it should be pretty easy to say what's up with it. You've already written 87 words to dismiss it, but not a single word to say why you dismiss it. I think that's because you have no idea how to explain why something is, or isn't understanding, or reasoning. In your comment above you accuse people of not being able to tell you clearly why GPT-4 is not reasoning or understanding, but you, yourself, can't even say clearly why copy/paste isn't. You have no clue how to do that. If you can't even say why something isn't reasoning, or understanding, then how can you say that something is? Do you even know what you're talking about, when you're talking about "reasoning" and "understanding"?