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The salesman could very well be correct. The reality is the numbers are incredibly contextual relative to specifically where you live. A great example of this

by MrFoof 4y ago

The salesman could very well be correct. The reality is the numbers are incredibly contextual relative to specifically where you live. A great example of this exercise was Harry Metcalfe actually doing the digging and the math to attempt to objectively measure his impact, and whether an EV or PHEV made sense as a daily given where he specifically lives in the UK is primarily powered by coal: https://youtu.be/k15n6QAe8cE https://youtu.be/k15n6QAe8cE For him, right now, PHEV was lower impact, but he makes it clear that that will very likely change over time, and that if he lived elsewhere, he likely would’ve went EV. - - - - - This is a classic example of, “it depends.” If you live in an era with lots of sustainable energy, it’s likely a no brainer, but the math changes if you lived in an area powered by a lot of natural gas, or around Appalachia which is still predominantly coal. To answer the question, you have to get the information and do the math to understand what decision you want to make, given your requirements and goals. - - - - - For the record, Harry’s Garage (and Harry’s Farm) is a gem of YouTube’s car community. He doesn’t need it to make money, so he just does what he wants and goes down a lot of very nerdy rabbit holes (including sustainable energy, gov’t farm and energy policies), and actually USES his cars for REAL trips — like taking his Testarossa through the Sahara, etc. Harry was basically an “eccentric super car owner” in the 80s/90s (and ghost wrote articles in UK car mags for a while as an “anonymous/eccentric super car owner”) that ultimately founded EVO Magazine, helped influence a lot of the cinematic direction for the Top Gear reboot in the early 2000s, and was the inspiration for “Clarkson’s Farm.” He’s a nerd’s nerd, and an absolute treasure.

grey-area 4y ago
He’s also wrong, or at least wrong for anyone considering the question now. The UK is phasing out coal completely in the next few years and aggressively pursuing renewables. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_coal-fired_power_stations_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_coal-fired_po...
- jonatron 4y ago
  Yep, the youtube video at 21:25 contains a screenshot of UK electricity generation mix over a 4 week period in 2020, which was 0.3% coal.
- komadori 4y ago
  Coincidentally, one of the UK's remaining three coal plants, West Burton A, apparently ceases operation today (31st March 2023). https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-65127874.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-65127874...
  - martinpw 4y ago
    And of the last remaining two, one closes this year and one next year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_coal-fired_power_stations_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_coal-fired_powe...
- MrFoof 4y ago
  So digging in, the issue is I misspoke here, and I may also have not linked to the correct video. It had nothing to do with coal. Instead I believe it was the proportion of CO2 emissions for the area he's in, relative to other parts of England. Harry is in "South East" England, around Oxfordshire, which from what I can find for around that timeframe.(https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996056/2005-19-local-authority-co2-emissions-statistical-release.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...), is the highest CO2 emissions for any region of England, of around 12%. Continuing to Google, this seems to be fairly consistent in that aside from Scotland, at least around the timeframe of the video (2020-2021), South East England had very high CO2 emissions in general, and I believe the government supplied pamphlet he had in one video also showed how much higher it was relative to the rest of England. It has since fallen substantially, but even though I linked to the wrong source (and can't be damned to go find the video where he does nothing but crunch the numbers), the point was more that at the time he made the consideration, his decision was swayed because at the time the emissions for where he lived was high enough that it swayed his purchasing decision at the moment. The rationale being that the tailpipe emissions when it had to run the ICE was lower enough than the grid source emissions to where it was slightly cleaner. In fact, it was part of a decision quite some time ago (well before 2020, I believe) to install a 15kW wind turbine on his farm to not just save money, but to ensure it was cleaner power than what was being supplied.
ackfoobar 4y ago
The math of heating is different from turning a motor though. All energy use ultimately becomes heat. You can burn it directly, then 1J of fuel becomes 1J of heat. Or you can turn it to electricity and use that to locally decrease entropy. If you mine bitcoin with the electricity, then 1J of fuel becomes 0.5J (approximately, of course) of waste heat in the power plant and 0.5J of waste heat in your GPU. If you use the electricity in a heat pump, then then 1J of fuel becomes 0.5J of waste heat in the power plant, 0.5J of heating in your house. AND 1.5J of heat is moved from air outside.
deleted 4y ago
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by MrFoof 4y ago

grey-area 4y ago

He’s also wrong, or at least wrong for anyone considering the question now. The UK is phasing out coal completely in the next few years and aggressively pursuing renewables. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_coal-fired_power_stations_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_coal-fired_po...

jonatron 4y ago
Yep, the youtube video at 21:25 contains a screenshot of UK electricity generation mix over a 4 week period in 2020, which was 0.3% coal.
komadori 4y ago
Coincidentally, one of the UK's remaining three coal plants, West Burton A, apparently ceases operation today (31st March 2023). https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-65127874.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-65127874...
- martinpw 4y ago
  And of the last remaining two, one closes this year and one next year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_coal-fired_power_stations_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_coal-fired_powe...
MrFoof 4y ago
So digging in, the issue is I misspoke here, and I may also have not linked to the correct video. It had nothing to do with coal. Instead I believe it was the proportion of CO2 emissions for the area he's in, relative to other parts of England. Harry is in "South East" England, around Oxfordshire, which from what I can find for around that timeframe.(https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996056/2005-19-local-authority-co2-emissions-statistical-release.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...), is the highest CO2 emissions for any region of England, of around 12%. Continuing to Google, this seems to be fairly consistent in that aside from Scotland, at least around the timeframe of the video (2020-2021), South East England had very high CO2 emissions in general, and I believe the government supplied pamphlet he had in one video also showed how much higher it was relative to the rest of England. It has since fallen substantially, but even though I linked to the wrong source (and can't be damned to go find the video where he does nothing but crunch the numbers), the point was more that at the time he made the consideration, his decision was swayed because at the time the emissions for where he lived was high enough that it swayed his purchasing decision at the moment. The rationale being that the tailpipe emissions when it had to run the ICE was lower enough than the grid source emissions to where it was slightly cleaner. In fact, it was part of a decision quite some time ago (well before 2020, I believe) to install a 15kW wind turbine on his farm to not just save money, but to ensure it was cleaner power than what was being supplied.

ackfoobar 4y ago

The math of heating is different from turning a motor though. All energy use ultimately becomes heat. You can burn it directly, then 1J of fuel becomes 1J of heat. Or you can turn it to electricity and use that to locally decrease entropy. If you mine bitcoin with the electricity, then 1J of fuel becomes 0.5J (approximately, of course) of waste heat in the power plant and 0.5J of waste heat in your GPU. If you use the electricity in a heat pump, then then 1J of fuel becomes 0.5J of waste heat in the power plant, 0.5J of heating in your house. AND 1.5J of heat is moved from air outside.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]