4 ms·

While this is obviously a dumb move, there are 2 upsides for Italy: - Italy, like the rest of south europe is hobbled by an army of bureaucrats doing busywork

by seydor 4y ago

While this is obviously a dumb move, there are 2 upsides for Italy: - Italy, like the rest of south europe is hobbled by an army of bureaucrats doing busywork and their jobs are the first to be threatened by an AI speaking fluent Italian. So it helps them to keep unemployment from getting even higher - It's an opportunity for an Italian company to create a model and grow in this window of opportunity. Italy has great engineers

sebzim4500 4y ago
>It's an opportunity for an Italian company to create a model and grow in this window of opportunity. Italy has great engineers Is it? It is probably impossible to find enough data to train an LLM without accidentally including at least one piece of PII. Even manage it, how would you ever prove it?
- ushakov 4y ago
  How many Italian companies could actually afford the training?
  - seydor 4y ago
    many? it doesnt cost that much
    - subeadia 4y ago
      classic HN
- seydor 4y ago
  why would they not use PII? It doesnt send that data to the US anyway
munk-a 4y ago
"this is obviously a dumb move" I'm going to need a citation for that. Yea, technology needs to be able to progress but ChatGPT looks poised to be the next generation in mass spam distribution and misinformation. I think it's always a good idea to embrace innovation in technology while also looking at what downsides that innovation may have - in this particular case if Italy stands alone their decision will be extremely ineffective (it might look prescient in hindsight but that's not worth much)... but the world taking a serious moment to consider how this will impact society doesn't sound like an obviously dumb move. We were pretty alright yesterday before this thing existed, this is a big thing, how will that impact us?
- cbeach 4y ago
  Banning ChatGPT within your own country will not defend your fellow citizens (in any way) from bad actors in other countries using AI to spam, disinform and manipulate your fellow citizens. The Internet is bigger than Italy
hankchinaski 4y ago
>It's an opportunity for an Italian company to create a model and grow in this window of opportunity. Italy has great engineers nobody is going to invest a dime in a country where regulators and government are against anything that is "new". it's just not a place for new business or tech overall. it's a very hostile environment to be operating in
- ithkuil 4y ago
  Nobody invests in Italy anyway, for other reasons (e.g. dysfunctional legal system), so that argument ain't going to sway any decision maker
- mk89 4y ago
  There is "new" and "new from another country, and we don't want that s*it here until we know what it is". This is not the reason why companies don't invest in Italy.
  - Bost 4y ago
    "We don't want that s*it here" reminds of being behind the Iron Curtain for ~40 years. And than the dam broke...
    - mk89 4y ago
      Isn't this what's happening a bit everywhere...?
moffkalast 4y ago
> Italy has great engineers Does it? Ferrari's become a real joke in recent years. I do fully buy the bureaucrats being threatened by automation theory though. > this is obviously a dumb move It's also a dumb move by OpenAI to pretend they can get away with not processing data in the EU like any other service has to. Just spin up a few instances, what's the big deal? It's just complete arrogance on their part. GDPR is not an optional suggestion.
- dukeyukey 4y ago
  Can't talk about Ferrari, but Italy still has some fantastic manufacturing going on. I'm a big coffee guy, and Italian espresso machines and coffee grinders are top notch, only really rivaled by a handful of Scandinavian makers
- asimpletune 4y ago
  Italy is a very rich country in almost every sense of the word. They have very good engineers.
- ransom1538 4y ago
  "GDPR is not an optional suggestion." No it's some dumb fad. If you are not in Europe just disregard it. You don't have to respect Republic of Peru laws either.
  - Renaud 4y ago
    Actually, you have to if you take money from Peruvians and are basically doing business there. Whether you can be reached and punished by a Peruvian court is another issue. Similarly, if your business serves any EU country, you have to respect its laws, and that includes GDPR, whether you like it or not. OpenAI's choice is then to close access to the EU, see its access forcibly shutdown, or comply with local laws. Since the EU is probably a very significant market for them (probably on par with the US), playing dumb is fairly dangerous. On the other hand, the sudden disappearance of ChatGPT in Europe may be what allows a locally grown one to succeed commercially (I doubt OpenAI will remain the only AI service provider forever).
  - 4y ago
ithkuil 4y ago
> Italy has great engineers Most of them work abroad. The brain exodus (fuga dei cervelli) may have slowed down in the last few years, but depending how the situation evolves it may resume
- seydor 4y ago
  Sadly true for all south europe But i do think that outright banning foreign products is a way to grow some tech sector.
  - ithkuil 4y ago
    If the ban was done at a Eu level I'd agree that it's possible that it would spur some growth, but I don't think Italy alone could do it. There is not enough internal demand for automation
coutego 4y ago
> Italy, like the rest of south europe is hobbled by an army of bureaucrats doing busywork and their jobs are the first to be threatened by an AI speaking fluent Italian. So it helps them to keep unemployment from getting even higher I wonder whether there are real hard numbers supporting this statement. Not saying it's not true, just wondering whether it actually is. I checked once for another country of South Europe and the reality was that both France and Germany had more "bureocrats" (public servants) per capita, contrary to public perception. There are many things we all think are true that, when actually checked, turn out to be false. Sometimes it's a matter of false stereotypes and sometimes it's something that was true at some point but it's not anymore. For example, about social mobility: USA is known as the land of the opportunities and a much more open and meritocratic place than Europe. That was certainly the case when it was founded. But the reality is that in the last decades (Western) Europe's social cohesion system created a much more favourable environment for children of poor people to prosper somewhat equal opportunities to children of medium and high earners (good and cheap/affordable public education, strong social network of public services,...), while the opposite trend took place in the USA. The results are quite outstanding: https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-social-mobility-index-2020-why-economies-benefit-from-fixing-inequality/ https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-social-mobility-index...

by seydor 4y ago

sebzim4500 4y ago

>It's an opportunity for an Italian company to create a model and grow in this window of opportunity. Italy has great engineers Is it? It is probably impossible to find enough data to train an LLM without accidentally including at least one piece of PII. Even manage it, how would you ever prove it?

ushakov 4y ago
How many Italian companies could actually afford the training?
- seydor 4y ago
  many? it doesnt cost that much
  - subeadia 4y ago
    classic HN
seydor 4y ago
why would they not use PII? It doesnt send that data to the US anyway

munk-a 4y ago

"this is obviously a dumb move" I'm going to need a citation for that. Yea, technology needs to be able to progress but ChatGPT looks poised to be the next generation in mass spam distribution and misinformation. I think it's always a good idea to embrace innovation in technology while also looking at what downsides that innovation may have - in this particular case if Italy stands alone their decision will be extremely ineffective (it might look prescient in hindsight but that's not worth much)... but the world taking a serious moment to consider how this will impact society doesn't sound like an obviously dumb move. We were pretty alright yesterday before this thing existed, this is a big thing, how will that impact us?

cbeach 4y ago
Banning ChatGPT within your own country will not defend your fellow citizens (in any way) from bad actors in other countries using AI to spam, disinform and manipulate your fellow citizens. The Internet is bigger than Italy

hankchinaski 4y ago

>It's an opportunity for an Italian company to create a model and grow in this window of opportunity. Italy has great engineers nobody is going to invest a dime in a country where regulators and government are against anything that is "new". it's just not a place for new business or tech overall. it's a very hostile environment to be operating in

ithkuil 4y ago
Nobody invests in Italy anyway, for other reasons (e.g. dysfunctional legal system), so that argument ain't going to sway any decision maker
mk89 4y ago
There is "new" and "new from another country, and we don't want that s*it here until we know what it is". This is not the reason why companies don't invest in Italy.
- Bost 4y ago
  "We don't want that s*it here" reminds of being behind the Iron Curtain for ~40 years. And than the dam broke...
  - mk89 4y ago
    Isn't this what's happening a bit everywhere...?

moffkalast 4y ago

> Italy has great engineers Does it? Ferrari's become a real joke in recent years. I do fully buy the bureaucrats being threatened by automation theory though. > this is obviously a dumb move It's also a dumb move by OpenAI to pretend they can get away with not processing data in the EU like any other service has to. Just spin up a few instances, what's the big deal? It's just complete arrogance on their part. GDPR is not an optional suggestion.

dukeyukey 4y ago
Can't talk about Ferrari, but Italy still has some fantastic manufacturing going on. I'm a big coffee guy, and Italian espresso machines and coffee grinders are top notch, only really rivaled by a handful of Scandinavian makers
asimpletune 4y ago
Italy is a very rich country in almost every sense of the word. They have very good engineers.
ransom1538 4y ago
"GDPR is not an optional suggestion." No it's some dumb fad. If you are not in Europe just disregard it. You don't have to respect Republic of Peru laws either.
- Renaud 4y ago
  Actually, you have to if you take money from Peruvians and are basically doing business there. Whether you can be reached and punished by a Peruvian court is another issue. Similarly, if your business serves any EU country, you have to respect its laws, and that includes GDPR, whether you like it or not. OpenAI's choice is then to close access to the EU, see its access forcibly shutdown, or comply with local laws. Since the EU is probably a very significant market for them (probably on par with the US), playing dumb is fairly dangerous. On the other hand, the sudden disappearance of ChatGPT in Europe may be what allows a locally grown one to succeed commercially (I doubt OpenAI will remain the only AI service provider forever).
- 4y ago

ithkuil 4y ago

> Italy has great engineers Most of them work abroad. The brain exodus (fuga dei cervelli) may have slowed down in the last few years, but depending how the situation evolves it may resume

seydor 4y ago
Sadly true for all south europe But i do think that outright banning foreign products is a way to grow some tech sector.
- ithkuil 4y ago
  If the ban was done at a Eu level I'd agree that it's possible that it would spur some growth, but I don't think Italy alone could do it. There is not enough internal demand for automation

coutego 4y ago

> Italy, like the rest of south europe is hobbled by an army of bureaucrats doing busywork and their jobs are the first to be threatened by an AI speaking fluent Italian. So it helps them to keep unemployment from getting even higher I wonder whether there are real hard numbers supporting this statement. Not saying it's not true, just wondering whether it actually is. I checked once for another country of South Europe and the reality was that both France and Germany had more "bureocrats" (public servants) per capita, contrary to public perception. There are many things we all think are true that, when actually checked, turn out to be false. Sometimes it's a matter of false stereotypes and sometimes it's something that was true at some point but it's not anymore. For example, about social mobility: USA is known as the land of the opportunities and a much more open and meritocratic place than Europe. That was certainly the case when it was founded. But the reality is that in the last decades (Western) Europe's social cohesion system created a much more favourable environment for children of poor people to prosper somewhat equal opportunities to children of medium and high earners (good and cheap/affordable public education, strong social network of public services,...), while the opposite trend took place in the USA. The results are quite outstanding: https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-social-mobility-index-2020-why-economies-benefit-from-fixing-inequality/ https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-social-mobility-index...