8 ms·

And that is even more extreme for the legislatures that are restricting reproductive rights and bodily autonomy...

adamrezich 4y ago
surely you don't believe that all women are pro-choice… so how do pro-life women fit into your worldview? surely they don't lack agency in their decision-making process, thereby forfeiting their political power…?
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  Actually even in states where there is an anti-abortion legislative majority, the majority of voters, and the overwhelming majority of female voters are against those restrictions. Nobody forces anyone to have an abortion, but it is almost exclusively male legislative bodies that make laws taking away that decision, and that is indeed something that polls extremely badly with women across the entire country. You seem completely uninformed on the topic of actual feminism or equal rights or women right's issues, with only a very basic and wrong understanding that probably stems from sources trying to curb women's right. If you feel so strongly I suggest you start reading up on that.
  - akavi 4y ago
    > the overwhelming majority of female voters are against those restrictions. Source? The polls I can find easily [0][1] show very similar levels of support for/against abortion restrictions between genders. Women tend to to be slightly more pro-choice, but certainly not "overwhelmingly". [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/state/mississippi/views-about-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-stu... (annoyingly this one answers "what percentage of people who are pro/anti abortion are female, rather than what percent of women are pro/anti-abortion") [1] https://www.cbs42.com/news/new-polling-shows-alabama-primary-voters-split-on-abortion-roe-v-wade/ https://www.cbs42.com/news/new-polling-shows-alabama-primary...
    - bayesian_horse 4y ago
      Still proving my point... People who get pregnant (not just women) are politically less powerful. And it is exclusively the almost-completely-male legislative bodies that are denying them those basic health care rights. In my book a democracy doesn't deny people health care for religious reasons. You wouldn't let muslims deny non-muslims (or other muslims) blood transfusions. (Yes, it's a thing...)
      - akavi 4y ago
        These people are affirmatively voting for these restrictions. Like, I don't think abortion is murder, but if I did, I'd vote for restrictions even if I could get pregnant. Just like I would vote for restrictions on "normal" murder if it were up for debate.
        bayesian_horse 4y ago
        They are taking away the liberty of other Human beings. That is a fundamental problem in this. And lack of access to abortion services has profound implications on women's rights, health, even life...
      - rayiner 4y ago
        Obviously, the majority of Texas female voters who voted for Greg Abbott after he signed a 6-week abortion ban don't agree with you about what is a "basic health care right." Also, women are significantly more religious than men! Anything that excludes religion as a basis for politics is going to disempower women. You have a bizarre definition of "democracy." In my Muslim home country, abortion and homosexuality are both illegal. That's democratic. Having some member of the elite, such as a judge, decide that the people cannot have the laws they want, because of their personal ideology, is not democratic.
        tptacek 4y ago
        This is an argument that would repeal Brown v. Board of Education. You might have a valid point about Democratic norms allowing people in Alabama to have different abortion policies than people in Connecticut, but you can't make it with an argument that "proves" as much as your "my home country bans homosexuality" argument does. Can you try harder? For instance, it's hard to tell whether you're trying to make a case against democracy and for a panel of philosopher kings, or whether you're making a case about what abortion policy means vis a vis women's rights and interests.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    You can't compare the actions of "male legislative bodies" in red states with opinion polling of "women across the country." Abbott won women in 2022 after signing a 6-week abortion ban. DeSantis did the same after signing a 6-week abortion ban. Obviously, neither politician cares what non-voters, or voters in other states think. Those "male legislative bodies" were almost invariably elected by female-majority electorates. And Republican women had a huge hand in getting those candidates elected, because they opposed Roe even more strongly than Republican men. https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/F2-Evaluation_of_Roe_v_Wade.png https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/F2-Evaluatio.... "Republican women" were also "the only group to say overwhelmingly that life begins at conception. About three-quarters said so, compared with less than half of Republican men and a third of Democratic women." https://www.npr.org/2019/06/07/730183531/poll-majority-want-to-keep-abortion-legal-but-they-also-want-restrictions https://www.npr.org/2019/06/07/730183531/poll-majority-want-... And while you're correct that most women, nationally, oppose the most extreme restrictions, most women also support restrictions that Roe didn't allow: https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/HHP_June2022_KeyResults.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/HHP.... For example, 75% of women and 69% of men said abortions should not be available after 15 weeks (see p. 41). What you're seeing with extreme abortion restrictions in deep red states is actually the product of women's political power. Anti-abortion women are among the most reliable voting blocs. While Roe was in effect, Republicans ran hard-line candidates to get those voters to turn out. More moderate Republicans, folks who say supported bans after 6 weeks or 12 weeks, could get on the same side of opposing Roe. When Roe was overturned, you had these hard-line candidates in office, who were significantly to the right on the abortion issue of even most voters in those states. Coalition politics can often result in elected officials who are more extreme on certain issues than the electorate as a whole. For example, elected Democrats in California overwhelmingly supported Prop 16. But Prop 16 was defeated 60-40 in the referendum: https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/prop-16-failed-in-california https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/prop-16-failed-in-californ....
    - bayesian_horse 4y ago
      [flagged]

surely you don't believe that all women are pro-choice… so how do pro-life women fit into your worldview? surely they don't lack agency in their decision-making process, thereby forfeiting their political power…?

bayesian_horse 4y ago
Actually even in states where there is an anti-abortion legislative majority, the majority of voters, and the overwhelming majority of female voters are against those restrictions. Nobody forces anyone to have an abortion, but it is almost exclusively male legislative bodies that make laws taking away that decision, and that is indeed something that polls extremely badly with women across the entire country. You seem completely uninformed on the topic of actual feminism or equal rights or women right's issues, with only a very basic and wrong understanding that probably stems from sources trying to curb women's right. If you feel so strongly I suggest you start reading up on that.
- akavi 4y ago
  > the overwhelming majority of female voters are against those restrictions. Source? The polls I can find easily [0][1] show very similar levels of support for/against abortion restrictions between genders. Women tend to to be slightly more pro-choice, but certainly not "overwhelmingly". [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/state/mississippi/views-about-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-stu... (annoyingly this one answers "what percentage of people who are pro/anti abortion are female, rather than what percent of women are pro/anti-abortion") [1] https://www.cbs42.com/news/new-polling-shows-alabama-primary-voters-split-on-abortion-roe-v-wade/ https://www.cbs42.com/news/new-polling-shows-alabama-primary...
  - bayesian_horse 4y ago
    Still proving my point... People who get pregnant (not just women) are politically less powerful. And it is exclusively the almost-completely-male legislative bodies that are denying them those basic health care rights. In my book a democracy doesn't deny people health care for religious reasons. You wouldn't let muslims deny non-muslims (or other muslims) blood transfusions. (Yes, it's a thing...)
    - akavi 4y ago
      These people are affirmatively voting for these restrictions. Like, I don't think abortion is murder, but if I did, I'd vote for restrictions even if I could get pregnant. Just like I would vote for restrictions on "normal" murder if it were up for debate.
      - bayesian_horse 4y ago
        They are taking away the liberty of other Human beings. That is a fundamental problem in this. And lack of access to abortion services has profound implications on women's rights, health, even life...
    - rayiner 4y ago
      Obviously, the majority of Texas female voters who voted for Greg Abbott after he signed a 6-week abortion ban don't agree with you about what is a "basic health care right." Also, women are significantly more religious than men! Anything that excludes religion as a basis for politics is going to disempower women. You have a bizarre definition of "democracy." In my Muslim home country, abortion and homosexuality are both illegal. That's democratic. Having some member of the elite, such as a judge, decide that the people cannot have the laws they want, because of their personal ideology, is not democratic.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        This is an argument that would repeal Brown v. Board of Education. You might have a valid point about Democratic norms allowing people in Alabama to have different abortion policies than people in Connecticut, but you can't make it with an argument that "proves" as much as your "my home country bans homosexuality" argument does. Can you try harder? For instance, it's hard to tell whether you're trying to make a case against democracy and for a panel of philosopher kings, or whether you're making a case about what abortion policy means vis a vis women's rights and interests.
- rayiner 4y ago
  You can't compare the actions of "male legislative bodies" in red states with opinion polling of "women across the country." Abbott won women in 2022 after signing a 6-week abortion ban. DeSantis did the same after signing a 6-week abortion ban. Obviously, neither politician cares what non-voters, or voters in other states think. Those "male legislative bodies" were almost invariably elected by female-majority electorates. And Republican women had a huge hand in getting those candidates elected, because they opposed Roe even more strongly than Republican men. https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/F2-Evaluation_of_Roe_v_Wade.png https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/F2-Evaluatio.... "Republican women" were also "the only group to say overwhelmingly that life begins at conception. About three-quarters said so, compared with less than half of Republican men and a third of Democratic women." https://www.npr.org/2019/06/07/730183531/poll-majority-want-to-keep-abortion-legal-but-they-also-want-restrictions https://www.npr.org/2019/06/07/730183531/poll-majority-want-... And while you're correct that most women, nationally, oppose the most extreme restrictions, most women also support restrictions that Roe didn't allow: https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/HHP_June2022_KeyResults.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/HHP.... For example, 75% of women and 69% of men said abortions should not be available after 15 weeks (see p. 41). What you're seeing with extreme abortion restrictions in deep red states is actually the product of women's political power. Anti-abortion women are among the most reliable voting blocs. While Roe was in effect, Republicans ran hard-line candidates to get those voters to turn out. More moderate Republicans, folks who say supported bans after 6 weeks or 12 weeks, could get on the same side of opposing Roe. When Roe was overturned, you had these hard-line candidates in office, who were significantly to the right on the abortion issue of even most voters in those states. Coalition politics can often result in elected officials who are more extreme on certain issues than the electorate as a whole. For example, elected Democrats in California overwhelmingly supported Prop 16. But Prop 16 was defeated 60-40 in the referendum: https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/prop-16-failed-in-california https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/prop-16-failed-in-californ....
  - bayesian_horse 4y ago
    [flagged]