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Nah. I worked as a project engineer in a hydrogen fuel cell test lab for a few years. H2 is EXTREMELY hazardous. It can be ignited by a miniscule amount of e

Nah. I worked as a project engineer in a hydrogen fuel cell test lab for a few years. H2 is EXTREMELY hazardous. It can be ignited by a miniscule amount of energy (i.e. a tiny static spark will do it), and it has a very fast flame front, which creates an extremely energetic explosion. It's also the smallest molecule, so it's very difficult to prevent leakage, and it embrittles and degrades most steels over time. Additionally, proton exchange membrane fuel cells (the most common kind) are poisoned by anything NOT H2, so you can't add odorous agents to H2 to easily detect leaks, like we do with natural gas. H2's only non-dangerous characteristic is its high buoyancy, which means it dissipates quickly in outdoor environments, but in my opinion that is not sufficient to offset all of its other dangerous characteristics. I would NEVER live in a building that had H2 stored inside (as in, inside a vehicle tank) or pumped in it, and I would definitely not trust the general public to use it safely. It also has to be stored at either incredibly high pressures (as a gas) or incredibly cold temperatures (as a liquid), neither of which are conducive to large-scale, long-range transport. But the worst part of H2 isn't how dangerous it is or how impractical it is; the worst part of H2 is how incredibly inefficient a hydrogen economy would be. See Paul Martin's excellent summary of H2 for a thorough debunking of the main H2 talking points. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/distilled-thoughts-hydrogen-paul-martin/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/distilled-thoughts-hydrogen-p...

entropicgravity 4y ago
All true. The real reason Toyota is interested in hydrogen is that it would maintain its current balance sheet. Hydrogen would allow Toyota to swap one messy, expensive, heavy power plant requiring lots of maintenance (ie fuel cell) for ICE technology. Whereas EV technology has almost no maintenance, a motor with one moving part and regenerative braking that means even the brakes last forever. The accountants at Toyota would definitely frown at that. All the other car companies did the same calculations and said 'NO'. Lets just say we'll do that and keep kicking the can down the road for as long as possible. Now, thanks to Tesla, the cat is out of the bag and the entire industry knows they'll need a new financial platform to survive in the future and no, hydrogen will not save their sorry butts.
- nordsieck 4y ago
  > Whereas EV technology has almost no maintenance, a motor with one moving part and regenerative braking that means even the brakes last forever. The accountants at Toyota would definitely frown at that. That doesn't seem right. Of all the major brands, Toyota (and Lexus) is the most reliable. They are the opposite of planned obsolescence - they work hard to make their cars last for a very long time. I suppose in the short term, that's a downside for them, but in the long term, their reputation for being extremely reliable pays off in multiple ways - more demand, higher residual value, etc. I have no idea why the Japanese auto makers chased hydrogen so hard, but there as to be some other reason. Otherwise we would have seen declining reliability in their gas lineup before now.
  - somewhat_drunk 4y ago
    Agreed. I think Toyota embraced H2 not because they wanted to replace a complex ICE with a complex PEMFC, but because a) Japan has no oil or mineral reserves to speak of, and b) when they started down that path, battery tech was woefully inadequate. Now that we've seen that batteries can power passenger vehicles just fine, I think Toyota and the Japanese government are both stubbornly engaging in the sunk cost fallacy. But the writing's on the wall: H2 is dead tech for passenger vehicles.
    - _hypx 4y ago
      Wrong. All cars will eventually have to move to hydrogen. This is due to the unsustainability of battery cars. A lot of the anti-Japan rhetoric here is bordering on racism. They are actually planning ahead. Western carmakers are short-sighted and not thinking past the next few quarters.
      - somewhat_drunk 4y ago
        Why is it so easy to spot the right winger these days? Oh that's right, it's because you all parrot the same nonsense. The valuable materials in EV batteries don't get used up - they're still in the battery, and can be recycled. We haven't figured out the particulars, but there's no reason why it can't be done. In fact, the biggest issue that battery recyclers are facing right now is a lack of batteries to recycle. Stop swallowing propaganda wholesale. Start thinking for yourself.
_hypx 4y ago
This is total bullshit. Hydrogen is fundamentally necessary to a green economy. You literally couldn't reach zero emissions without it for industry and energy storage. Same is true of transportation in nearly every sector. People are only sorta excusing it for personal transport but only because rich people can make do with battery cars. But in reality, it's practically necessary for personal transportation too. Not everyone can recharge at home.
- somewhat_drunk 4y ago
  Nothing I've said is bullshit, let alone the post in totality. Feel free to point out a specific claim I've made that you believe is bullshit, and we'll proceed from there.
  - _hypx 4y ago
    Millions of tons of hydrogen is used in industry. Serious incidents are rare. Not to mention there hasn't been a single hydrogen car that has exploded or whatever (something that can't be said of BEVs). So just from that your argument is just lazy fearmongering and FUD.
    - somewhat_drunk 4y ago
      Industry is very good at mitigating risks with procedures and detection. Homeowners, not so much. >Serious incidents are rare. Even so, they're probably more common than you think. Google it. >there hasn't been a single hydrogen car that has exploded Uh... google "hydrogen car explosion." >So just from that your argument is just lazy fearmongering and FUD. So far, every point you've made has been weak or outright incorrect. Meanwhile, you have yet to seriously challenge any point I've made. The reason for this isn't that I'm better at this than you. Your position is simply untenable. I hope you figure out how to account for the bias that so obviously pervades your thought process. Cheers, I guess.
      - _hypx 4y ago
        There literally hasn't been a single hydrogen car that has exploded. You can only cite examples of people carrying hydrogen and due to incompetence it started a fire or explosion. Meanwhile, many people have died in fires in existing cars, including BEVs. Sorry, but you are a liar. Your attitude is just a mask for your BS.

entropicgravity 4y ago

All true. The real reason Toyota is interested in hydrogen is that it would maintain its current balance sheet. Hydrogen would allow Toyota to swap one messy, expensive, heavy power plant requiring lots of maintenance (ie fuel cell) for ICE technology. Whereas EV technology has almost no maintenance, a motor with one moving part and regenerative braking that means even the brakes last forever. The accountants at Toyota would definitely frown at that. All the other car companies did the same calculations and said 'NO'. Lets just say we'll do that and keep kicking the can down the road for as long as possible. Now, thanks to Tesla, the cat is out of the bag and the entire industry knows they'll need a new financial platform to survive in the future and no, hydrogen will not save their sorry butts.

nordsieck 4y ago
> Whereas EV technology has almost no maintenance, a motor with one moving part and regenerative braking that means even the brakes last forever. The accountants at Toyota would definitely frown at that. That doesn't seem right. Of all the major brands, Toyota (and Lexus) is the most reliable. They are the opposite of planned obsolescence - they work hard to make their cars last for a very long time. I suppose in the short term, that's a downside for them, but in the long term, their reputation for being extremely reliable pays off in multiple ways - more demand, higher residual value, etc. I have no idea why the Japanese auto makers chased hydrogen so hard, but there as to be some other reason. Otherwise we would have seen declining reliability in their gas lineup before now.
- somewhat_drunk 4y ago
  Agreed. I think Toyota embraced H2 not because they wanted to replace a complex ICE with a complex PEMFC, but because a) Japan has no oil or mineral reserves to speak of, and b) when they started down that path, battery tech was woefully inadequate. Now that we've seen that batteries can power passenger vehicles just fine, I think Toyota and the Japanese government are both stubbornly engaging in the sunk cost fallacy. But the writing's on the wall: H2 is dead tech for passenger vehicles.
  - _hypx 4y ago
    Wrong. All cars will eventually have to move to hydrogen. This is due to the unsustainability of battery cars. A lot of the anti-Japan rhetoric here is bordering on racism. They are actually planning ahead. Western carmakers are short-sighted and not thinking past the next few quarters.
    - somewhat_drunk 4y ago
      Why is it so easy to spot the right winger these days? Oh that's right, it's because you all parrot the same nonsense. The valuable materials in EV batteries don't get used up - they're still in the battery, and can be recycled. We haven't figured out the particulars, but there's no reason why it can't be done. In fact, the biggest issue that battery recyclers are facing right now is a lack of batteries to recycle. Stop swallowing propaganda wholesale. Start thinking for yourself.

_hypx 4y ago

This is total bullshit. Hydrogen is fundamentally necessary to a green economy. You literally couldn't reach zero emissions without it for industry and energy storage. Same is true of transportation in nearly every sector. People are only sorta excusing it for personal transport but only because rich people can make do with battery cars. But in reality, it's practically necessary for personal transportation too. Not everyone can recharge at home.

somewhat_drunk 4y ago
Nothing I've said is bullshit, let alone the post in totality. Feel free to point out a specific claim I've made that you believe is bullshit, and we'll proceed from there.
- _hypx 4y ago
  Millions of tons of hydrogen is used in industry. Serious incidents are rare. Not to mention there hasn't been a single hydrogen car that has exploded or whatever (something that can't be said of BEVs). So just from that your argument is just lazy fearmongering and FUD.
  - somewhat_drunk 4y ago
    Industry is very good at mitigating risks with procedures and detection. Homeowners, not so much. >Serious incidents are rare. Even so, they're probably more common than you think. Google it. >there hasn't been a single hydrogen car that has exploded Uh... google "hydrogen car explosion." >So just from that your argument is just lazy fearmongering and FUD. So far, every point you've made has been weak or outright incorrect. Meanwhile, you have yet to seriously challenge any point I've made. The reason for this isn't that I'm better at this than you. Your position is simply untenable. I hope you figure out how to account for the bias that so obviously pervades your thought process. Cheers, I guess.
    - _hypx 4y ago
      There literally hasn't been a single hydrogen car that has exploded. You can only cite examples of people carrying hydrogen and due to incompetence it started a fire or explosion. Meanwhile, many people have died in fires in existing cars, including BEVs. Sorry, but you are a liar. Your attitude is just a mask for your BS.