6 ms·

This is anecdotal, but most New Yorkers I know care, there's just not much they can do. The NYPD is effectively a military force and they have de facto veto pow

by i80and 4y ago

This is anecdotal, but most New Yorkers I know care, there's just not much they can do. The NYPD is effectively a military force and they have de facto veto power over the city government.

woodruffw 4y ago
This is correct, and to elaborate: the NYPD (1) is largely staffed by employees who live outside of the city, and (2) has an openly revanchist attitude towards the citizens they ostensibly protect and serve. Under the current scheme, there is no incentive structure that "fixes" the NYPD; the NYPD is functioning as intended, and in broad conflict with the roles that constrain every other NYC civil servant (e.g., around living in the city).
- bogomipz 4y ago
  "Revanchist"? What territory did they ever posses and lose? What would be the revanche?
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Revanchism doesn't require physical territory, only a sense of loss and a corresponding drive for revenge. The NYPD sees itself as an occupying force in a hostile city. What they've lost (or believe they've lost) is the respect of the natives; rather than questioning why that is, they've decided that the appropriate course of action is to extract all the value they can from the city while diminishing the natives' qualities of life to the greatest extent possible. Revanchism is the appropriate descriptor.
    - bogomipz 4y ago
      Even if taken as a general "sense of loss" what did they lose? They didn't lose anything. They weren't "defunded", there was no structural reform or consents decrees. The protests stopped and it went back to business as usual for them. In fact as of last week they exceeded their already notorious annual overtime budget by 100 million dollars![1]][2] Again what loss do they to avenge exactly? [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-20/nypd-blows-overtime-budget-by-nearly-100-million-on-pace-for-record https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-20/nypd-blow... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-nyc-police-overtime-pay https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-nyc-police-overtime-...
      - ambicapter 4y ago
        Quoting relevant part of comment you just replied to: > What they've lost (or believe they've lost) is the respect of the natives;
        bogomipz 4y ago
        I'm sorry but "the natives"? That's a hollow cliche. What does that mean? Just native New Yorkers? Because it's a city of transplants and immigrants. Tense relations between citizens and NYPD is not new. See Amodou Diallo, the 2004 Republican National Convention protests, "Stop and Frisk", Eric Garner, the list spans many decades. People also realize that realize that crime and public safety are a concern and that police have an important job. The tension between police and residents has been a near constant for decades. It ebbs and flows and there's fundamentally no more or and no less respect now.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        "Natives" was just a euphemism for residents. I don't know why you're performing such a hostile reading: it can be simultaneously true that tension for police and residents has been present for decades, and that the police have shed a degree of respect and baseline approval that they've historically held[1], regardless of whether that approval was ever actually justified. Which is what has happened[2]. [1]: https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/205619.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/205619.pdf [2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/12/us/gallup-poll-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/12/us/gallup-poll-police.htm...
        bogomipz 4y ago
        There's nothing euphemistic about it at all. It bizarre to me that you seem to be going out of your way for specific word selection but then you go on to use those words incorrectly. It makes for confusing reading which is where my original question came. There's nothing "hostile" about asking for clarification.
- ghodith 4y ago
  Can NYPD police officers even reasonably afford living in NYC?
  - kevviiinn 4y ago
    Police officers are some of the most well paid workers in the country, they make insane amount off overtime on top of already comfortable salaries
    - smegger001 4y ago
      and get a well funded pension with many cops retiring in their late 40s to early 50s.
  - naremu 4y ago
    Indeed.com reports an average salary of 82k a year for NYPD officers, 49% above what it considers the average annual income in the US. I recently looked into moving to NYC and was shocked to see prices similar to my middle of nowhere, significantly lower quality city. I could work in a pizzeria and live in NYC, this "it's too expensive" is really a suburban view of the sqft. So why don't the civil servants making four times as much armed with lethal weapons live there? Frankly, I'm amazed they consider it worth the commute to live outside the city.
    - Avshalom 4y ago
      which doesn't include the overtime (which for nypd was 2.2 billion last year https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/overtime-overview/ https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/overtime-overview/ )
    - wldcordeiro 4y ago
      It seems to be a policy thing across the nation to have police not live in the communities they police. Part of it I'm sure is some amount of fear of retribution but I think it's really to avoid the officers from developing empathy towards the community members. I recall years ago my roommate working at a fast food restaurant and he advanced to manager level and they immediately moved him from the store he worked at to another to make sure he was more detached with his underlings and it seems like a similar tactic.
- bogomipz 4y ago
  "Revanchist"? What territory did they ever posses and lose? What exactly would be the revanche here?
- 2-718-281-828 4y ago
  > by employees who live outside of the city I think that's addressed in Cop Land (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118887/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118887/). Excellent movie.
atchoo 4y ago
They voted for an NYPD Captain as mayor so it would seem if they do care, then it's supportive, desiring more NYPD power over government not less. Which seems insane to me...
- jkaplowitz 4y ago
  Most New Yorkers didn’t vote for him in any real sense - he barely won a crowded Democratic primary in which the progressive vote split widely, and then in the general election the main vote was that he was better than the pretty far out there Republican candidate.
  - tehwebguy 4y ago
    This phenomenon is the real danger of single party capture in a district or state. Same thing happens in CA.
- chimeracoder 4y ago
  > They voted for an NYPD Captain as mayor so it would seem if they do care, then it's supportive, desiring more NYPD power over government not less. Which seems insane to me... It's actually very difficult to argue that peope wanted more NYPD power over government rather than less if you look at the full story of the 2021 elections in NYC. Eric Adams only barely squeaked through the primary, and even that was after literally four other forerunners either dropped out of the race or became embroiled in their own personal scandals. As further evidence that the mayoral race was somewhat of a fluke, the same ballot also included many other citywide and local races, and more progressive candidates swept those races citywide, many of whom ran on platforms that explicitly promised to take on the NYPD. That's a trend that was pretty consistent in districts across the city, as opposed to looking at one single race that had a particularly unusually large number of scandals (even by NYC standards). Eric Adams didn't win because people wanted more NYPD power in city government; he won because he happened to be in the right place at the right time.
  - valarauko 4y ago
    tbf to Adams, he did really well in the primary in some areas, driven at least partly by his hard on crime image. His success in Brooklyn could possibly be attributed to his connection to the borough, but the Bronx? Adams was the overwhelming choice in the Bronx, and from speaking to many Bronxites, they absolutely wanted to see more cops on the streets and cops on the subways.
taco_emoji 4y ago
Yeah, I mean, who do you call to arrest the cops?
kulahan 4y ago
Why would veto power matter in a scenario where they've gone rogue?
int_19h 4y ago
Even NYPD cops themselves can't do much about it: Here's one guy who tried to blow a whistle on his PD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft The very people who were in charge of investigating police conduct reported him to his superiors. And then his own colleagues raided his house and forced him into involuntary confinement as an "emotionally disturbed person", handcuffs and all. The cops who delivered him to the psychiatric ward intentionally lied and misrepresented the whole thing to make sure that he remained confined and restrained. Luckily, the guy had two recorders running during the raid, and the cops only found one, so there was ample evidence. I actually wonder if he'd still be in psych ward if not for that.
- bob_theslob646 4y ago
  This was an amazing read. Thank you for sharing. Oh my gosh ,how did people not go to jail?
  - tehwebguy 4y ago
    Who would put them in jail?

by i80and 4y ago

This is anecdotal, but most New Yorkers I know care, there's just not much they can do. The NYPD is effectively a military force and they have de facto veto power over the city government.

woodruffw 4y ago

This is correct, and to elaborate: the NYPD (1) is largely staffed by employees who live outside of the city, and (2) has an openly revanchist attitude towards the citizens they ostensibly protect and serve. Under the current scheme, there is no incentive structure that "fixes" the NYPD; the NYPD is functioning as intended, and in broad conflict with the roles that constrain every other NYC civil servant (e.g., around living in the city).

bogomipz 4y ago
"Revanchist"? What territory did they ever posses and lose? What would be the revanche?
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Revanchism doesn't require physical territory, only a sense of loss and a corresponding drive for revenge. The NYPD sees itself as an occupying force in a hostile city. What they've lost (or believe they've lost) is the respect of the natives; rather than questioning why that is, they've decided that the appropriate course of action is to extract all the value they can from the city while diminishing the natives' qualities of life to the greatest extent possible. Revanchism is the appropriate descriptor.
  - bogomipz 4y ago
    Even if taken as a general "sense of loss" what did they lose? They didn't lose anything. They weren't "defunded", there was no structural reform or consents decrees. The protests stopped and it went back to business as usual for them. In fact as of last week they exceeded their already notorious annual overtime budget by 100 million dollars![1]][2] Again what loss do they to avenge exactly? [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-20/nypd-blows-overtime-budget-by-nearly-100-million-on-pace-for-record https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-20/nypd-blow... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-nyc-police-overtime-pay https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-nyc-police-overtime-...
    - ambicapter 4y ago
      Quoting relevant part of comment you just replied to: > What they've lost (or believe they've lost) is the respect of the natives;
      - bogomipz 4y ago
        I'm sorry but "the natives"? That's a hollow cliche. What does that mean? Just native New Yorkers? Because it's a city of transplants and immigrants. Tense relations between citizens and NYPD is not new. See Amodou Diallo, the 2004 Republican National Convention protests, "Stop and Frisk", Eric Garner, the list spans many decades. People also realize that realize that crime and public safety are a concern and that police have an important job. The tension between police and residents has been a near constant for decades. It ebbs and flows and there's fundamentally no more or and no less respect now.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        "Natives" was just a euphemism for residents. I don't know why you're performing such a hostile reading: it can be simultaneously true that tension for police and residents has been present for decades, and that the police have shed a degree of respect and baseline approval that they've historically held[1], regardless of whether that approval was ever actually justified. Which is what has happened[2]. [1]: https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/205619.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/205619.pdf [2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/12/us/gallup-poll-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/12/us/gallup-poll-police.htm...
        bogomipz 4y ago
        There's nothing euphemistic about it at all. It bizarre to me that you seem to be going out of your way for specific word selection but then you go on to use those words incorrectly. It makes for confusing reading which is where my original question came. There's nothing "hostile" about asking for clarification.
ghodith 4y ago
Can NYPD police officers even reasonably afford living in NYC?
- kevviiinn 4y ago
  Police officers are some of the most well paid workers in the country, they make insane amount off overtime on top of already comfortable salaries
  - smegger001 4y ago
    and get a well funded pension with many cops retiring in their late 40s to early 50s.
- naremu 4y ago
  Indeed.com reports an average salary of 82k a year for NYPD officers, 49% above what it considers the average annual income in the US. I recently looked into moving to NYC and was shocked to see prices similar to my middle of nowhere, significantly lower quality city. I could work in a pizzeria and live in NYC, this "it's too expensive" is really a suburban view of the sqft. So why don't the civil servants making four times as much armed with lethal weapons live there? Frankly, I'm amazed they consider it worth the commute to live outside the city.
  - Avshalom 4y ago
    which doesn't include the overtime (which for nypd was 2.2 billion last year https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/overtime-overview/ https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/overtime-overview/ )
  - wldcordeiro 4y ago
    It seems to be a policy thing across the nation to have police not live in the communities they police. Part of it I'm sure is some amount of fear of retribution but I think it's really to avoid the officers from developing empathy towards the community members. I recall years ago my roommate working at a fast food restaurant and he advanced to manager level and they immediately moved him from the store he worked at to another to make sure he was more detached with his underlings and it seems like a similar tactic.
bogomipz 4y ago
"Revanchist"? What territory did they ever posses and lose? What exactly would be the revanche here?
2-718-281-828 4y ago
> by employees who live outside of the city I think that's addressed in Cop Land (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118887/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118887/). Excellent movie.

atchoo 4y ago

They voted for an NYPD Captain as mayor so it would seem if they do care, then it's supportive, desiring more NYPD power over government not less. Which seems insane to me...

jkaplowitz 4y ago
Most New Yorkers didn’t vote for him in any real sense - he barely won a crowded Democratic primary in which the progressive vote split widely, and then in the general election the main vote was that he was better than the pretty far out there Republican candidate.
- tehwebguy 4y ago
  This phenomenon is the real danger of single party capture in a district or state. Same thing happens in CA.
chimeracoder 4y ago
> They voted for an NYPD Captain as mayor so it would seem if they do care, then it's supportive, desiring more NYPD power over government not less. Which seems insane to me... It's actually very difficult to argue that peope wanted more NYPD power over government rather than less if you look at the full story of the 2021 elections in NYC. Eric Adams only barely squeaked through the primary, and even that was after literally four other forerunners either dropped out of the race or became embroiled in their own personal scandals. As further evidence that the mayoral race was somewhat of a fluke, the same ballot also included many other citywide and local races, and more progressive candidates swept those races citywide, many of whom ran on platforms that explicitly promised to take on the NYPD. That's a trend that was pretty consistent in districts across the city, as opposed to looking at one single race that had a particularly unusually large number of scandals (even by NYC standards). Eric Adams didn't win because people wanted more NYPD power in city government; he won because he happened to be in the right place at the right time.
- valarauko 4y ago
  tbf to Adams, he did really well in the primary in some areas, driven at least partly by his hard on crime image. His success in Brooklyn could possibly be attributed to his connection to the borough, but the Bronx? Adams was the overwhelming choice in the Bronx, and from speaking to many Bronxites, they absolutely wanted to see more cops on the streets and cops on the subways.

taco_emoji 4y ago

Yeah, I mean, who do you call to arrest the cops?

kulahan 4y ago

Why would veto power matter in a scenario where they've gone rogue?

int_19h 4y ago

Even NYPD cops themselves can't do much about it: Here's one guy who tried to blow a whistle on his PD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft The very people who were in charge of investigating police conduct reported him to his superiors. And then his own colleagues raided his house and forced him into involuntary confinement as an "emotionally disturbed person", handcuffs and all. The cops who delivered him to the psychiatric ward intentionally lied and misrepresented the whole thing to make sure that he remained confined and restrained. Luckily, the guy had two recorders running during the raid, and the cops only found one, so there was ample evidence. I actually wonder if he'd still be in psych ward if not for that.

bob_theslob646 4y ago
This was an amazing read. Thank you for sharing. Oh my gosh ,how did people not go to jail?
- tehwebguy 4y ago
  Who would put them in jail?