4 ms·

This country was founded on the principle of checks and balances. There are no checks on the police. Without adversarial oversight, police will always be above

This country was founded on the principle of checks and balances. There are no checks on the police. Without adversarial oversight, police will always be above the law. This is a bad place for our country to be.

javajosh 4y ago
Yes. In theory justice checks the police. But if the DA and/or judge goes after the police, then the police stop cooperating with them on cases. Even good police in the department who want change will get no leverage that way. I'd love to read a long-form, probably anonymous piece by an NYPD IA officer about their experiences. I'm sure it would be suitably horrifying.
- sixothree 4y ago
  The current framework is not sufficient. The DA needs adversarial checks too.
  - salawat 4y ago
    Public Defenders are supposed to be a check on the DA, but we can all see how well that turns out funding-wise. I can only assume the media was assumed to be a check on the police, as they're the only professionally investigative edifice that isn't government funded. Again though, there is a notable asymmetry there. Particularly nowadays.
    - Avshalom 4y ago
      they're coming for the public defenders too. https://ballsandstrikes.org/law-politics/supreme-court-gideon-v-wainwright-conservative-legal-movement/ https://ballsandstrikes.org/law-politics/supreme-court-gideo...
      - drstewart 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_Justice >Demand Justice is a politically progressive American 501(c)(4) legal advocacy organization. It focuses on motivating left-leaning voters based on its goal of changing the composition of the American federal judiciary, as well as encouraging the United States Senate to confirm progressive nominees to judicial positions and to expand the United States Supreme Court. How unbiased.
        salawat 4y ago
        I honestly don't care in this specific case. It could be the head of the Union of Public Defenders everywhere. The fact is if you look at the funds allocated to support the police/prosecution, then look at the dollars spent maintaining the Public Defenders office (which should arguably be at parity), and given the unavailibility of "stealing from the populace" (civil asset forfeiture or fine assessment) to level the budgetary playing field, the resulting fiscal asymmetry would and should make any bookkeeper blush. Our system is no justice system without parity between the prosecution and defense. That is nowhere near the case. It is an undeniable fact.
        tehwebguy 4y ago
        Don’t worry they’re an evil version of this too called The Federalist Society.
- everforward 4y ago
  > But if the DA and/or judge goes after the police, then the police stop cooperating with them on cases. I don't think that procedural issue is really the root. Judges have wide authority to issue contempt of court charges (including for refusing to appear/testify/cooperate). Police officers are not immune to those, and could bear significant fines or imprisonment as a result. The issue underlying that solution is who enforces those charges? The police department sure isn't. I don't know if a judge could ask US marshals to effect the arrest or not. The judiciary relies on the executive branch to provide the muscle, and doesn't have any real means to enforce its own judgements.
inglor_cz 4y ago
In Czechia, we have a special agency that just investigates possible criminal activity of the police and similar agencies (such as the prison service or customs service). They seem to be doing a sort-of OK job. There are quite a few cops in prison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Inspection_of_Security_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Inspection_of_Security...

javajosh 4y ago

Yes. In theory justice checks the police. But if the DA and/or judge goes after the police, then the police stop cooperating with them on cases. Even good police in the department who want change will get no leverage that way. I'd love to read a long-form, probably anonymous piece by an NYPD IA officer about their experiences. I'm sure it would be suitably horrifying.

sixothree 4y ago
The current framework is not sufficient. The DA needs adversarial checks too.
- salawat 4y ago
  Public Defenders are supposed to be a check on the DA, but we can all see how well that turns out funding-wise. I can only assume the media was assumed to be a check on the police, as they're the only professionally investigative edifice that isn't government funded. Again though, there is a notable asymmetry there. Particularly nowadays.
  - Avshalom 4y ago
    they're coming for the public defenders too. https://ballsandstrikes.org/law-politics/supreme-court-gideon-v-wainwright-conservative-legal-movement/ https://ballsandstrikes.org/law-politics/supreme-court-gideo...
    - drstewart 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_Justice >Demand Justice is a politically progressive American 501(c)(4) legal advocacy organization. It focuses on motivating left-leaning voters based on its goal of changing the composition of the American federal judiciary, as well as encouraging the United States Senate to confirm progressive nominees to judicial positions and to expand the United States Supreme Court. How unbiased.
      - salawat 4y ago
        I honestly don't care in this specific case. It could be the head of the Union of Public Defenders everywhere. The fact is if you look at the funds allocated to support the police/prosecution, then look at the dollars spent maintaining the Public Defenders office (which should arguably be at parity), and given the unavailibility of "stealing from the populace" (civil asset forfeiture or fine assessment) to level the budgetary playing field, the resulting fiscal asymmetry would and should make any bookkeeper blush. Our system is no justice system without parity between the prosecution and defense. That is nowhere near the case. It is an undeniable fact.
      - tehwebguy 4y ago
        Don’t worry they’re an evil version of this too called The Federalist Society.
everforward 4y ago
> But if the DA and/or judge goes after the police, then the police stop cooperating with them on cases. I don't think that procedural issue is really the root. Judges have wide authority to issue contempt of court charges (including for refusing to appear/testify/cooperate). Police officers are not immune to those, and could bear significant fines or imprisonment as a result. The issue underlying that solution is who enforces those charges? The police department sure isn't. I don't know if a judge could ask US marshals to effect the arrest or not. The judiciary relies on the executive branch to provide the muscle, and doesn't have any real means to enforce its own judgements.

inglor_cz 4y ago

In Czechia, we have a special agency that just investigates possible criminal activity of the police and similar agencies (such as the prison service or customs service). They seem to be doing a sort-of OK job. There are quite a few cops in prison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Inspection_of_Security_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Inspection_of_Security...