6 ms·

"Impact on disparate groups" I know who made the law happen, but it seems odd to me to ask police depts to run statistical analysis of their own work. Not only

"Impact on disparate groups" I know who made the law happen, but it seems odd to me to ask police depts to run statistical analysis of their own work. Not only they are not a neutral party, but thats not their mission. Thats for qualified data scientists and researchers to do. Police are supposed to address crime

hobs 4y ago
Well, it seems like they should arrest themselves based on this article.
- sixothree 4y ago
  This country was founded on the principle of checks and balances. There are no checks on the police. Without adversarial oversight, police will always be above the law. This is a bad place for our country to be.
  - javajosh 4y ago
    Yes. In theory justice checks the police. But if the DA and/or judge goes after the police, then the police stop cooperating with them on cases. Even good police in the department who want change will get no leverage that way. I'd love to read a long-form, probably anonymous piece by an NYPD IA officer about their experiences. I'm sure it would be suitably horrifying.
    - sixothree 4y ago
      The current framework is not sufficient. The DA needs adversarial checks too.
      - salawat 4y ago
        Public Defenders are supposed to be a check on the DA, but we can all see how well that turns out funding-wise. I can only assume the media was assumed to be a check on the police, as they're the only professionally investigative edifice that isn't government funded. Again though, there is a notable asymmetry there. Particularly nowadays.
        Avshalom 4y ago
        they're coming for the public defenders too. https://ballsandstrikes.org/law-politics/supreme-court-gideon-v-wainwright-conservative-legal-movement/ https://ballsandstrikes.org/law-politics/supreme-court-gideo...
        drstewart 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_Justice >Demand Justice is a politically progressive American 501(c)(4) legal advocacy organization. It focuses on motivating left-leaning voters based on its goal of changing the composition of the American federal judiciary, as well as encouraging the United States Senate to confirm progressive nominees to judicial positions and to expand the United States Supreme Court. How unbiased.
        salawat 4y ago
        I honestly don't care in this specific case. It could be the head of the Union of Public Defenders everywhere. The fact is if you look at the funds allocated to support the police/prosecution, then look at the dollars spent maintaining the Public Defenders office (which should arguably be at parity), and given the unavailibility of "stealing from the populace" (civil asset forfeiture or fine assessment) to level the budgetary playing field, the resulting fiscal asymmetry would and should make any bookkeeper blush. Our system is no justice system without parity between the prosecution and defense. That is nowhere near the case. It is an undeniable fact.
        tehwebguy 4y ago
        Don’t worry they’re an evil version of this too called The Federalist Society.
    - everforward 4y ago
      > But if the DA and/or judge goes after the police, then the police stop cooperating with them on cases. I don't think that procedural issue is really the root. Judges have wide authority to issue contempt of court charges (including for refusing to appear/testify/cooperate). Police officers are not immune to those, and could bear significant fines or imprisonment as a result. The issue underlying that solution is who enforces those charges? The police department sure isn't. I don't know if a judge could ask US marshals to effect the arrest or not. The judiciary relies on the executive branch to provide the muscle, and doesn't have any real means to enforce its own judgements.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    In Czechia, we have a special agency that just investigates possible criminal activity of the police and similar agencies (such as the prison service or customs service). They seem to be doing a sort-of OK job. There are quite a few cops in prison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Inspection_of_Security_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Inspection_of_Security...
malfist 4y ago
They're addressing crime....by committing it.
zzzeek 4y ago
send some data scientists and researchers into an NYPD office to "touch" things and see how that goes
thrillgore 4y ago
Police in the US have no obligation to serve the public or prevent crime due to Warren vs DC.
- IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
  Can you elaborate? id like To understand what you mean.
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    Court found that if there’s a crime in progress, police aware of it don’t need to do anything about it. They aren’t crime stoppers. The court case was from when police were alerted to an ongoing break in and rape/battery against several women, the police arrived and left after the attackers told them it was ok (with the women tied up upstairs). One of the women had called the police, which then alerted the attackers that there was another woman in the house they hadn’t known about, who they then found and attacked as well. Court found the police had done nothing wrong by trusting the men and leaving without entering the home or doing anything else, after the woman’s 911 call. The ruling said that the police have no obligation to follow up on reported and active crimes, even if they’re already present at the scene - it’s simply not their purpose.
  - krisoft 4y ago
    They are talking about "Warren v. District of Columbia" court case. To quote from wikipedia: "Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981) is a District of Columbia Court of Appeals case that held that the police do not owe a specific duty to provide police services to specific citizens based on the public duty doctrine." It kinda means (very loosely): If you call the police to help you, but they don't show up, tough luck. You can't sue them over that.
  - loeg 4y ago
    "Protect and serve" is a slogan not backed up by anything. Police can observe, e.g., a mass shooter, and take no action. They have no responsibility to take any action.
- 4y ago
pulisse 4y ago
The NYPD has more than a few data scientists on staff, as they should. At their scale (40k officers policing a population of 8.5 million), small biases have effects that are large in absolute terms.
- mjhay 4y ago
  Those data scientists are incentivized to make assumptions that wind up giving the results the NYPD wants. Statistics is not objective.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

hobs 4y ago

Well, it seems like they should arrest themselves based on this article.

sixothree 4y ago
This country was founded on the principle of checks and balances. There are no checks on the police. Without adversarial oversight, police will always be above the law. This is a bad place for our country to be.
- javajosh 4y ago
  Yes. In theory justice checks the police. But if the DA and/or judge goes after the police, then the police stop cooperating with them on cases. Even good police in the department who want change will get no leverage that way. I'd love to read a long-form, probably anonymous piece by an NYPD IA officer about their experiences. I'm sure it would be suitably horrifying.
  - sixothree 4y ago
    The current framework is not sufficient. The DA needs adversarial checks too.
    - salawat 4y ago
      Public Defenders are supposed to be a check on the DA, but we can all see how well that turns out funding-wise. I can only assume the media was assumed to be a check on the police, as they're the only professionally investigative edifice that isn't government funded. Again though, there is a notable asymmetry there. Particularly nowadays.
      - Avshalom 4y ago
        they're coming for the public defenders too. https://ballsandstrikes.org/law-politics/supreme-court-gideon-v-wainwright-conservative-legal-movement/ https://ballsandstrikes.org/law-politics/supreme-court-gideo...
        drstewart 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_Justice >Demand Justice is a politically progressive American 501(c)(4) legal advocacy organization. It focuses on motivating left-leaning voters based on its goal of changing the composition of the American federal judiciary, as well as encouraging the United States Senate to confirm progressive nominees to judicial positions and to expand the United States Supreme Court. How unbiased.
        salawat 4y ago
        I honestly don't care in this specific case. It could be the head of the Union of Public Defenders everywhere. The fact is if you look at the funds allocated to support the police/prosecution, then look at the dollars spent maintaining the Public Defenders office (which should arguably be at parity), and given the unavailibility of "stealing from the populace" (civil asset forfeiture or fine assessment) to level the budgetary playing field, the resulting fiscal asymmetry would and should make any bookkeeper blush. Our system is no justice system without parity between the prosecution and defense. That is nowhere near the case. It is an undeniable fact.
        tehwebguy 4y ago
        Don’t worry they’re an evil version of this too called The Federalist Society.
  - everforward 4y ago
    > But if the DA and/or judge goes after the police, then the police stop cooperating with them on cases. I don't think that procedural issue is really the root. Judges have wide authority to issue contempt of court charges (including for refusing to appear/testify/cooperate). Police officers are not immune to those, and could bear significant fines or imprisonment as a result. The issue underlying that solution is who enforces those charges? The police department sure isn't. I don't know if a judge could ask US marshals to effect the arrest or not. The judiciary relies on the executive branch to provide the muscle, and doesn't have any real means to enforce its own judgements.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  In Czechia, we have a special agency that just investigates possible criminal activity of the police and similar agencies (such as the prison service or customs service). They seem to be doing a sort-of OK job. There are quite a few cops in prison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Inspection_of_Security_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Inspection_of_Security...

malfist 4y ago

They're addressing crime....by committing it.

zzzeek 4y ago

send some data scientists and researchers into an NYPD office to "touch" things and see how that goes

thrillgore 4y ago

Police in the US have no obligation to serve the public or prevent crime due to Warren vs DC.

IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
Can you elaborate? id like To understand what you mean.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  Court found that if there’s a crime in progress, police aware of it don’t need to do anything about it. They aren’t crime stoppers. The court case was from when police were alerted to an ongoing break in and rape/battery against several women, the police arrived and left after the attackers told them it was ok (with the women tied up upstairs). One of the women had called the police, which then alerted the attackers that there was another woman in the house they hadn’t known about, who they then found and attacked as well. Court found the police had done nothing wrong by trusting the men and leaving without entering the home or doing anything else, after the woman’s 911 call. The ruling said that the police have no obligation to follow up on reported and active crimes, even if they’re already present at the scene - it’s simply not their purpose.
- krisoft 4y ago
  They are talking about "Warren v. District of Columbia" court case. To quote from wikipedia: "Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981) is a District of Columbia Court of Appeals case that held that the police do not owe a specific duty to provide police services to specific citizens based on the public duty doctrine." It kinda means (very loosely): If you call the police to help you, but they don't show up, tough luck. You can't sue them over that.
- loeg 4y ago
  "Protect and serve" is a slogan not backed up by anything. Police can observe, e.g., a mass shooter, and take no action. They have no responsibility to take any action.
4y ago

pulisse 4y ago

The NYPD has more than a few data scientists on staff, as they should. At their scale (40k officers policing a population of 8.5 million), small biases have effects that are large in absolute terms.

mjhay 4y ago
Those data scientists are incentivized to make assumptions that wind up giving the results the NYPD wants. Statistics is not objective.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]