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I really don't get this kind of bans. When I connect to a service in the US, my bits are traveling there. Italy "banning" ChatGPT (whatever it means) is like pr

I really don't get this kind of bans. When I connect to a service in the US, my bits are traveling there. Italy "banning" ChatGPT (whatever it means) is like preventing me from getting high in Amsterdam because, as an Italian citizen, I should not be allowed to.. Never got it, and never will.

bboygravity 4y ago
Singapore actually does drug tests on random Singaporeans returning from holidays to enforce exactly that.
- smcl 4y ago
  That's mental. I guess they're trying to encourage people abstain altogether, but what'll actually happen is anyone inclined to dabble will steer clear of the kind of substances that can be detected for a while after you take them and use things that disappear relatively quickly. "No weed for me thanks, I don't wanna take any chances. I'll stick to the cocaine tonight"
- quadcore 4y ago
  Fun fact, canadians are warned they'll be tested for cannabis if they travel to singapore (one can end up in jail iirc): https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/singapore https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/singapore
  - Tommstein 4y ago
    [flagged]
- Zurrrrr 4y ago
  Singapore has to be one of the worst places to live. I don't care how 'nice' their society might seem, their overstep is too steep by far. "Custom officers can subject travellers to a drug screening test at the point of entry to Singapore. If you test positive for drugs, you can be arrested and prosecuted, even if the drugs were consumed prior to your arrival in the country." That's insanity.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - Zurrrrr 4y ago
      > Reportedly some of the happiest people on earth They seem pretty far from the Scandinavian countries. Besides, I'd find it hard to trust any results from a totalitarian country. > It sounds insane to you because you’re used to the filth we live in and don’t even see the decay that’s all around us anymore. Crime and violence are normal in our world and a government that won’t tolerate it is a foreign concept. There are plenty of civilized countries with low crime rates that are not totalitarian.
      - nemo44x 4y ago
        [flagged]
        vincnetas 4y ago
        Had to read about suicides in Singapore. I could not believe this, but apparently suicides were ILEGAL in Singapore until recently : Suicide was decriminalised in Singapore with the passing of the Criminal Law Reform Bill on 6 May 2019. Before that, Section 309 of the Penal Code stated that "Whoever attempts to commit suicide, and does any act towards the commission of such offence, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to one year, or with fine, or with both."[13] The section was rarely enforced, between 2013 and 2015, only 0.6% of reported cases was brought to court.[ Makes you really think about executing your idea successfully. And also probably no point i hoping for suicide prevention hotline.
        Zurrrrr 4y ago
        Honestly Singapore belongs on some human rights watch lists or something. That's deplorable.
_trackno5 4y ago
You're right, but you see more and more countries forcing data locality requirements. EU user data can't be stored in the US. India also tried to push for data locality (though I think they went back on that)
menzoic 4y ago
Its not like banning you from getting high in Amsterdam. In that situation both you and the drugs are in amsterdam where they have no jurisdiction.
thefz 4y ago
You are ignoring everything GDPR is about. European data, European rules.
- PrimeMcFly 4y ago
  GDPR tries to enforce its rules on servers outside of its territory. I'm still waiting to see how well that holds up in court.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    It has held up quite well so far. https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/international-transfers-schrems-ii-gdpr https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/international-t...
    - Zurrrrr 4y ago
      That link doesn't really show anything useful. I'll wait to see how it holds up when the EU tries to enforce it against a US website with no presence of any kind in the EU.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        > I'll wait to see how it holds up when the EU tries to enforce it against a US website with no presence of any kind in the EU. That's called moving the goalposts. But even in that case: the EU has a lot of power and no matter what you are still required to have a legal presence in the EU if you want to serve EU customers. Breaking the law is generally not the best course of action for any company that wants to stay in business over the longer term.
        Zurrrrr 4y ago
        > That's called moving the goalposts. No, it isn't. That's the test. > no matter what you are still required to have a legal presence in the EU if you want to serve EU customers. That's nonsense. There is nothing stopping EU citizens from buying something via my US based website while they are in the EU, and I have no obligation to have any kind of presence in the EU.
lm28469 4y ago
Have you actually read the article ? A country can ban a service when it doesn't follow its laws, there isn't anything crazy about it It's more like not allowing you to smoke weed you bought in Amsterdam if you already came back to Italy Something being legal somewhere doesn't mean it's legal everywhere > When I connect to a service in the US, my bits are traveling there Well yeah, that's like exactly the issue they're pointing out ...
- patrakov 4y ago
  It _is_ crazy, because of unknown collateral damage, especially due to proxies, CDNs, and inability of most ISPs to filter using anything except IP addresses. You know, large-scale DPI is for non-democratic countries only.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    Or you know they can put a "do you accept data collection for the sake of training our algorithm" checkbox when you sign up and be done with it...
apexalpha 4y ago
>I really don't get this kind of bans. In economics this is called "createtive destruction" [0]. Basically it's the freedom of messing up someone else's business by creating something better. Think e-mail destroying most jobs for mail delivery or digital photos destroying photo development shops. One of the hallmarks of lesser developed economies is that they do not allow these kind of things. What happens in stead is that the people that have a lot to lose will use their political power to stop the innovation from happening. The more common practise this is in a country, the less developed the economy is usually. Because this partly destroys the incentive to innovate. So basically a lot of powerful people in Italy are pretty scared for their jobs / income because of the rapid innovation in Large Language Models. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction
freehorse 4y ago
It prohibits bits from "Open"AI from coming to you in Italy. The same way as it bans drugs been sent from the Netherlands to you in Italy. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but it is not incomprehensible either, actually it is quite common in many countries for different reasons (data compliance, copyrights, political reasons etc). The internet gives us an impression of a unified world, but we still live in a world divided in nation states that fight each other and corporations that exploit people and destroy the planet for making profit.

bboygravity 4y ago

Singapore actually does drug tests on random Singaporeans returning from holidays to enforce exactly that.

smcl 4y ago
That's mental. I guess they're trying to encourage people abstain altogether, but what'll actually happen is anyone inclined to dabble will steer clear of the kind of substances that can be detected for a while after you take them and use things that disappear relatively quickly. "No weed for me thanks, I don't wanna take any chances. I'll stick to the cocaine tonight"
quadcore 4y ago
Fun fact, canadians are warned they'll be tested for cannabis if they travel to singapore (one can end up in jail iirc): https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/singapore https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/singapore
- Tommstein 4y ago
  [flagged]
Zurrrrr 4y ago
Singapore has to be one of the worst places to live. I don't care how 'nice' their society might seem, their overstep is too steep by far. "Custom officers can subject travellers to a drug screening test at the point of entry to Singapore. If you test positive for drugs, you can be arrested and prosecuted, even if the drugs were consumed prior to your arrival in the country." That's insanity.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - Zurrrrr 4y ago
    > Reportedly some of the happiest people on earth They seem pretty far from the Scandinavian countries. Besides, I'd find it hard to trust any results from a totalitarian country. > It sounds insane to you because you’re used to the filth we live in and don’t even see the decay that’s all around us anymore. Crime and violence are normal in our world and a government that won’t tolerate it is a foreign concept. There are plenty of civilized countries with low crime rates that are not totalitarian.
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - vincnetas 4y ago
        Had to read about suicides in Singapore. I could not believe this, but apparently suicides were ILEGAL in Singapore until recently : Suicide was decriminalised in Singapore with the passing of the Criminal Law Reform Bill on 6 May 2019. Before that, Section 309 of the Penal Code stated that "Whoever attempts to commit suicide, and does any act towards the commission of such offence, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to one year, or with fine, or with both."[13] The section was rarely enforced, between 2013 and 2015, only 0.6% of reported cases was brought to court.[ Makes you really think about executing your idea successfully. And also probably no point i hoping for suicide prevention hotline.
        Zurrrrr 4y ago
        Honestly Singapore belongs on some human rights watch lists or something. That's deplorable.

_trackno5 4y ago

You're right, but you see more and more countries forcing data locality requirements. EU user data can't be stored in the US. India also tried to push for data locality (though I think they went back on that)

menzoic 4y ago

Its not like banning you from getting high in Amsterdam. In that situation both you and the drugs are in amsterdam where they have no jurisdiction.

thefz 4y ago

You are ignoring everything GDPR is about. European data, European rules.

PrimeMcFly 4y ago
GDPR tries to enforce its rules on servers outside of its territory. I'm still waiting to see how well that holds up in court.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  It has held up quite well so far. https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/international-transfers-schrems-ii-gdpr https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/international-t...
  - Zurrrrr 4y ago
    That link doesn't really show anything useful. I'll wait to see how it holds up when the EU tries to enforce it against a US website with no presence of any kind in the EU.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      > I'll wait to see how it holds up when the EU tries to enforce it against a US website with no presence of any kind in the EU. That's called moving the goalposts. But even in that case: the EU has a lot of power and no matter what you are still required to have a legal presence in the EU if you want to serve EU customers. Breaking the law is generally not the best course of action for any company that wants to stay in business over the longer term.
      - Zurrrrr 4y ago
        > That's called moving the goalposts. No, it isn't. That's the test. > no matter what you are still required to have a legal presence in the EU if you want to serve EU customers. That's nonsense. There is nothing stopping EU citizens from buying something via my US based website while they are in the EU, and I have no obligation to have any kind of presence in the EU.

lm28469 4y ago

Have you actually read the article ? A country can ban a service when it doesn't follow its laws, there isn't anything crazy about it It's more like not allowing you to smoke weed you bought in Amsterdam if you already came back to Italy Something being legal somewhere doesn't mean it's legal everywhere > When I connect to a service in the US, my bits are traveling there Well yeah, that's like exactly the issue they're pointing out ...

patrakov 4y ago
It _is_ crazy, because of unknown collateral damage, especially due to proxies, CDNs, and inability of most ISPs to filter using anything except IP addresses. You know, large-scale DPI is for non-democratic countries only.
- lm28469 4y ago
  Or you know they can put a "do you accept data collection for the sake of training our algorithm" checkbox when you sign up and be done with it...

apexalpha 4y ago

>I really don't get this kind of bans. In economics this is called "createtive destruction" [0]. Basically it's the freedom of messing up someone else's business by creating something better. Think e-mail destroying most jobs for mail delivery or digital photos destroying photo development shops. One of the hallmarks of lesser developed economies is that they do not allow these kind of things. What happens in stead is that the people that have a lot to lose will use their political power to stop the innovation from happening. The more common practise this is in a country, the less developed the economy is usually. Because this partly destroys the incentive to innovate. So basically a lot of powerful people in Italy are pretty scared for their jobs / income because of the rapid innovation in Large Language Models. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction

freehorse 4y ago

It prohibits bits from "Open"AI from coming to you in Italy. The same way as it bans drugs been sent from the Netherlands to you in Italy. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but it is not incomprehensible either, actually it is quite common in many countries for different reasons (data compliance, copyrights, political reasons etc). The internet gives us an impression of a unified world, but we still live in a world divided in nation states that fight each other and corporations that exploit people and destroy the planet for making profit.