8 ms·

This has caused a bit of a stir because the UK hasn't quite understood the relative weakness of wage growth for the last 10 years. The culturally understood mil

by reedf1 4y ago

This has caused a bit of a stir because the UK hasn't quite understood the relative weakness of wage growth for the last 10 years. The culturally understood milestones of "high pay" 30/50k have also not increased with inflation. I get paid well for the UK - but I could triple or even quadruple my salary in the US/Australia. Combined with relatively high taxes (my marginal tax rate is 60%) - it isn't a great value proposition for many professionals, and despite the luxuries (healthcare, gun control) - almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit.

alias_neo 4y ago
So you're on between £100,000 and £125,140. There's a very small (and stupid) band in our income tax system where people are on 60% marginal.
- TheHappyOddish 4y ago
  That's pretty high though. In Australia, the top tax bracket is $180k+ (£100k or so) at 45%, which I always thought was absurdly high. Earning 40c on the dollar (or 40p on the pound, I suppose) must surely set a ceiling.
  - alias_neo 4y ago
    It's a bit of a mess in our tax system that causes this. The highest official tax bracket is 45%[0], which comes into effect once you earn over £150,000. The "higher" rate bracket is from ~£50,000 to £150,000, HOWEVER: Once you reach £100,000, your tax-free personal allowance is reduced by £1 for every £2 you earn, so that bottom section of your earnings enter into the 20% bracket when they were 0% previously, so effectively you're marginally taxed 60% (40% + 20%) on your earnings between £100,000 and £125,140. Between £125,140 and £150,000 you're back at 40%! Anything over £150,000 is taxed at 45%. Also, if you're (un)fortunate enough to be a parent with young children and you benefit from tax-free child care[1] (to which pretty much everyone is entitled), the second you earn a penny over £100,000 (after pension deductions, but before tax etc) you lose the ~£2000 per child annual benefit. Effectively this means that if any one parent in a household gets a pay rise from £100,000 to £100,000.01 (ignoring the pensions contributions for a moment), they are actually ~£2000 per child worse off. These people are therefore better off earning £100,000 than £100,000 + (£2000*N) where N is the number of children at tax-free childcare age, until their children age out of the benefit. In case that's not enough; the moment you earned that extra 1p over £100,000, you're now obligated to start filing tax returns, even if you're a PAYE employee never having done so before [2]. [0] https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates [1] https://www.gov.uk/tax-free-childcare https://www.gov.uk/tax-free-childcare [2] https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates/income-over-100000 https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates/income-over-100000
    - Popcorn3865 4y ago
      Thank you for this comment. I moved into the 100k bracket 3 years ago, and have just hit 125k this Jan. I am the sole earner in our house, wife can't work and have a 12 year old boy. And I've been trying (and failing) to work out why it seems like more than 40% of my earnings are taken as tax. And why I need to do tax returns as I've always been PAYE with no other income sources.
      - alias_neo 4y ago
        The bad news for you, is that in 4 days[0], the 45% threshold will lower to the ~£125k mark, so your next pay rise will be particularly hit hard. [0] https://archive.vn/TJyWe https://archive.vn/TJyWe
        Popcorn3865 4y ago
        Ha. I joined the workforce the year after final salary pensions were shutdown. My slightly older peers are all on track for early retirement. I will never be able to retire. I considered contracting just as IR35 was introduced. My slightly older peers who - literally - got rich and paid no taxes enjoy much better lifestyle than me. So this makes sense, that as I claw my way to higher income, it's taken away by the system. All the while having record house prices, plummeted pension performance and now cost of living/inflation. What a horrible game.
dukeyukey 4y ago
I'd argue this is more pronounced in non-professional fields - looking at levels.fyi, London pays developers more than any Canadian or Australian city, despite the latter two having a higher CoL. London is only beat by the US and Switzerland.
- pelasaco 4y ago
  exactly. Quite possible to double my salary moving from a job in Berlin to UK, all of that with home office possibility.
  - stuaxo 4y ago
    Costs of lots of stuff is quite a bit higher, from food to rent.
- rcarr 4y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if the mean was dragged upwards by FAANG headquarters and a few financial service firms with a median that is lagging behind.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    My experience in talking to FAANG recruiters in the UK is that they're not paying all that well here relative to other (non-financial services firms) for developers. I turned down even starting the interview process with Facebook because the money on offer wasn't worth my time.
satysin 4y ago
Reason I left the UK for [redacted] was lack of wage growth. My wife is earning more than double what she was in the UK (tech sector). Taxes are very similar to the UK whereas overall CoL is lower in [redacted] (for us anyway, it varies on location, expected lifestyle, etc) so we have been able to save a lot more than we were able to in the UK. Also quality of life in [redacted] is so so much better than it was in the UK. Comparing the last 5 years here vs our 5 last years in the UK and it is shocking how different and better our life is. Sure [redacted] has its problems (just look at the protests right now) but I wouldn't leave unless it was for a really big chunk of change. [redacted] is freakin' awesome. Oh also the healthcare is fucking incredible. I've had a few issues recently and every time I've needed to see my doctor it is same day and when referred to see a specialist it is always within a week. I had an MRI last week and a follow up yesterday to check some other things. Saw the consultant 15 minutes after the scan. Got the all clear. No waiting around thinking the worst. Absolutely amazing service and wanna know how much it cost me? €5 for parking last week and €3.70 for parking this week.
- basisword 4y ago
  >> Also quality of life in France is so so much better than it was in the UK. Comparing the last 5 years here vs our 5 last years in the UK and it is shocking how different and better our life is. Do you mind expanding on this? Particularly the less obvious things that you didn’t notice until you’d spent some time living there.
  - lock-the-spock 4y ago
    Not op but among others and not taking about paris, but I'd suggest * Food options/freshness * Culture affordable * Pace of life generally calmer (but I know only UK cities not countryside life so YMMV) * Working hours lower * More human public services * Quality of housing - UK housing stock is abysmal especially if you are renting * Maternity/general employee protections There are also downsides, like probably lower tech take-up and flexibility with some big corps being quite hierarchical and the school system somewhat old fashioned (on the other hand not as segregated and struggling as UK system)
pelasaco 4y ago
> almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit. "almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit".. sorry, but are everyone looking to move to US/Australia? Because to Europe, the salaries are much lower than on UK, and frankly, US (specially because of healthcare, gun control, and street violence) is becoming less and less attractive, despite the amount of salary. Actually US is looking like South America: You try to earn as much as you can, not because you want, but to be able to live a safer life.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Sounds like you haven't been around the US much. There are cheap places and safe places to live. Stay away from the bigger liberal cities if street violence is a concern. If the US looks like South America you've fallen into a media trap. You are being sold something untrue but packaged perfectly so everyone gets paid. Where in America would you get pick pocked like south america? Disney World? The mean streets of Akron Ohio? Nonsense..
  - auggierose 4y ago
    Downtown in any major US city is a pretty scary place.
    - tatersolid 4y ago
      I’m in downtown Boston right now, just after being in downtown London. London is WAY scarier, and I was in the Mayfair neighborhood! Violence is not a concern for the overwhelming majority of Americans in their daily lives. EDIT: not that ANYONE should have to worry about violence in their daily lives; one just saying the US isn’t what you see in the movies or on 24x7 news.
      - auggierose 4y ago
        Boston: 700.000 people London: 9.000.000 people That is, London is the size of New York. Just the fact that you are comparing Boston with London kind of proves my point.
mellosouls 4y ago
almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit Anecdotal only. I don't know many eyeing the exit. Not everybody is so money focused.
- auggierose 4y ago
  You don't have to be money focused. Maybe you just want an appointment with your dentist without waiting for over 2 months for it.
  - mellosouls 4y ago
    There's plenty wrong with the UK but the pursuit of materialism and short-term I'm-alright-Jack priorities is responsible for a lot of it.
    - jleask 4y ago
      I understand what you were saying in your original comment having seen this now. Completely agree the level of selfish short term-ism is a joke.
      - mellosouls 4y ago
        Thanks, yes, and I agree the UK has been on a downward path for a considerable time; I don't blame anybody for trying to find somewhere they will be happier - and warmer :) - it's the materialistic worship at the centre of a lot of our problems (reflected in the values of empty salary-chasing) that bothers me.
        antisthenes 4y ago
        If the services are around you are deteriorating, then by definition you need more money to access the type of services that used to exist at the level you are used to. So I'm not sure empty salary-chasing is as empty as you make it seem. Sometimes salary chasing is just trying to keep up with inflation in order to make sure your family maintains a decent standard of living. Unless I completely misunderstood your post, in which case disregard everything I said.
bilekas 4y ago
> and despite the luxuries (healthcare, gun control) Slightly off topic but it's almost comical that `gun control` is considered a luxury.
maccard 4y ago
Meanwhile almost everyone I know has the same opportunities available and is not eyeing the exit, in fact actively choosing to be paid less to stay here in the UK rather than deal with the standard of living in places like the US. My company operates in the UK and the US and I could transfer. Having visited and spent weeks at a time there, I actively choose not to despite the fact I would likely be eligible for it, and see a significant salary bump. I would live in a bigger house, drive a nicer car, but that's not an increase in a standard of living, that's an increase in a perception of my standards.
nly 4y ago
Yep, everything you said is spot on. I'm on N times the UK national median wage in London and still have anxiety about being able to afford kids, pay my mortgage, and retire at a half decent age. I see American firms offering 50-100% more pay for the same or less demanding roles.

by reedf1 4y ago

alias_neo 4y ago

So you're on between £100,000 and £125,140. There's a very small (and stupid) band in our income tax system where people are on 60% marginal.

TheHappyOddish 4y ago
That's pretty high though. In Australia, the top tax bracket is $180k+ (£100k or so) at 45%, which I always thought was absurdly high. Earning 40c on the dollar (or 40p on the pound, I suppose) must surely set a ceiling.
- alias_neo 4y ago
  It's a bit of a mess in our tax system that causes this. The highest official tax bracket is 45%[0], which comes into effect once you earn over £150,000. The "higher" rate bracket is from ~£50,000 to £150,000, HOWEVER: Once you reach £100,000, your tax-free personal allowance is reduced by £1 for every £2 you earn, so that bottom section of your earnings enter into the 20% bracket when they were 0% previously, so effectively you're marginally taxed 60% (40% + 20%) on your earnings between £100,000 and £125,140. Between £125,140 and £150,000 you're back at 40%! Anything over £150,000 is taxed at 45%. Also, if you're (un)fortunate enough to be a parent with young children and you benefit from tax-free child care[1] (to which pretty much everyone is entitled), the second you earn a penny over £100,000 (after pension deductions, but before tax etc) you lose the ~£2000 per child annual benefit. Effectively this means that if any one parent in a household gets a pay rise from £100,000 to £100,000.01 (ignoring the pensions contributions for a moment), they are actually ~£2000 per child worse off. These people are therefore better off earning £100,000 than £100,000 + (£2000*N) where N is the number of children at tax-free childcare age, until their children age out of the benefit. In case that's not enough; the moment you earned that extra 1p over £100,000, you're now obligated to start filing tax returns, even if you're a PAYE employee never having done so before [2]. [0] https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates [1] https://www.gov.uk/tax-free-childcare https://www.gov.uk/tax-free-childcare [2] https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates/income-over-100000 https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates/income-over-100000
  - Popcorn3865 4y ago
    Thank you for this comment. I moved into the 100k bracket 3 years ago, and have just hit 125k this Jan. I am the sole earner in our house, wife can't work and have a 12 year old boy. And I've been trying (and failing) to work out why it seems like more than 40% of my earnings are taken as tax. And why I need to do tax returns as I've always been PAYE with no other income sources.
    - alias_neo 4y ago
      The bad news for you, is that in 4 days[0], the 45% threshold will lower to the ~£125k mark, so your next pay rise will be particularly hit hard. [0] https://archive.vn/TJyWe https://archive.vn/TJyWe
      - Popcorn3865 4y ago
        Ha. I joined the workforce the year after final salary pensions were shutdown. My slightly older peers are all on track for early retirement. I will never be able to retire. I considered contracting just as IR35 was introduced. My slightly older peers who - literally - got rich and paid no taxes enjoy much better lifestyle than me. So this makes sense, that as I claw my way to higher income, it's taken away by the system. All the while having record house prices, plummeted pension performance and now cost of living/inflation. What a horrible game.

dukeyukey 4y ago

I'd argue this is more pronounced in non-professional fields - looking at levels.fyi, London pays developers more than any Canadian or Australian city, despite the latter two having a higher CoL. London is only beat by the US and Switzerland.

pelasaco 4y ago
exactly. Quite possible to double my salary moving from a job in Berlin to UK, all of that with home office possibility.
- stuaxo 4y ago
  Costs of lots of stuff is quite a bit higher, from food to rent.
rcarr 4y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if the mean was dragged upwards by FAANG headquarters and a few financial service firms with a median that is lagging behind.
- vidarh 4y ago
  My experience in talking to FAANG recruiters in the UK is that they're not paying all that well here relative to other (non-financial services firms) for developers. I turned down even starting the interview process with Facebook because the money on offer wasn't worth my time.

satysin 4y ago

Reason I left the UK for [redacted] was lack of wage growth. My wife is earning more than double what she was in the UK (tech sector). Taxes are very similar to the UK whereas overall CoL is lower in [redacted] (for us anyway, it varies on location, expected lifestyle, etc) so we have been able to save a lot more than we were able to in the UK. Also quality of life in [redacted] is so so much better than it was in the UK. Comparing the last 5 years here vs our 5 last years in the UK and it is shocking how different and better our life is. Sure [redacted] has its problems (just look at the protests right now) but I wouldn't leave unless it was for a really big chunk of change. [redacted] is freakin' awesome. Oh also the healthcare is fucking incredible. I've had a few issues recently and every time I've needed to see my doctor it is same day and when referred to see a specialist it is always within a week. I had an MRI last week and a follow up yesterday to check some other things. Saw the consultant 15 minutes after the scan. Got the all clear. No waiting around thinking the worst. Absolutely amazing service and wanna know how much it cost me? €5 for parking last week and €3.70 for parking this week.

basisword 4y ago
>> Also quality of life in France is so so much better than it was in the UK. Comparing the last 5 years here vs our 5 last years in the UK and it is shocking how different and better our life is. Do you mind expanding on this? Particularly the less obvious things that you didn’t notice until you’d spent some time living there.
- lock-the-spock 4y ago
  Not op but among others and not taking about paris, but I'd suggest * Food options/freshness * Culture affordable * Pace of life generally calmer (but I know only UK cities not countryside life so YMMV) * Working hours lower * More human public services * Quality of housing - UK housing stock is abysmal especially if you are renting * Maternity/general employee protections There are also downsides, like probably lower tech take-up and flexibility with some big corps being quite hierarchical and the school system somewhat old fashioned (on the other hand not as segregated and struggling as UK system)

pelasaco 4y ago

> almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit. "almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit".. sorry, but are everyone looking to move to US/Australia? Because to Europe, the salaries are much lower than on UK, and frankly, US (specially because of healthcare, gun control, and street violence) is becoming less and less attractive, despite the amount of salary. Actually US is looking like South America: You try to earn as much as you can, not because you want, but to be able to live a safer life.

ipaddr 4y ago
Sounds like you haven't been around the US much. There are cheap places and safe places to live. Stay away from the bigger liberal cities if street violence is a concern. If the US looks like South America you've fallen into a media trap. You are being sold something untrue but packaged perfectly so everyone gets paid. Where in America would you get pick pocked like south america? Disney World? The mean streets of Akron Ohio? Nonsense..
- auggierose 4y ago
  Downtown in any major US city is a pretty scary place.
  - tatersolid 4y ago
    I’m in downtown Boston right now, just after being in downtown London. London is WAY scarier, and I was in the Mayfair neighborhood! Violence is not a concern for the overwhelming majority of Americans in their daily lives. EDIT: not that ANYONE should have to worry about violence in their daily lives; one just saying the US isn’t what you see in the movies or on 24x7 news.
    - auggierose 4y ago
      Boston: 700.000 people London: 9.000.000 people That is, London is the size of New York. Just the fact that you are comparing Boston with London kind of proves my point.

mellosouls 4y ago

almost everyone I know is eyeing the exit Anecdotal only. I don't know many eyeing the exit. Not everybody is so money focused.

auggierose 4y ago
You don't have to be money focused. Maybe you just want an appointment with your dentist without waiting for over 2 months for it.
- mellosouls 4y ago
  There's plenty wrong with the UK but the pursuit of materialism and short-term I'm-alright-Jack priorities is responsible for a lot of it.
  - jleask 4y ago
    I understand what you were saying in your original comment having seen this now. Completely agree the level of selfish short term-ism is a joke.
    - mellosouls 4y ago
      Thanks, yes, and I agree the UK has been on a downward path for a considerable time; I don't blame anybody for trying to find somewhere they will be happier - and warmer :) - it's the materialistic worship at the centre of a lot of our problems (reflected in the values of empty salary-chasing) that bothers me.
      - antisthenes 4y ago
        If the services are around you are deteriorating, then by definition you need more money to access the type of services that used to exist at the level you are used to. So I'm not sure empty salary-chasing is as empty as you make it seem. Sometimes salary chasing is just trying to keep up with inflation in order to make sure your family maintains a decent standard of living. Unless I completely misunderstood your post, in which case disregard everything I said.

bilekas 4y ago

> and despite the luxuries (healthcare, gun control) Slightly off topic but it's almost comical that `gun control` is considered a luxury.

maccard 4y ago

Meanwhile almost everyone I know has the same opportunities available and is not eyeing the exit, in fact actively choosing to be paid less to stay here in the UK rather than deal with the standard of living in places like the US. My company operates in the UK and the US and I could transfer. Having visited and spent weeks at a time there, I actively choose not to despite the fact I would likely be eligible for it, and see a significant salary bump. I would live in a bigger house, drive a nicer car, but that's not an increase in a standard of living, that's an increase in a perception of my standards.

nly 4y ago

Yep, everything you said is spot on. I'm on N times the UK national median wage in London and still have anxiety about being able to afford kids, pay my mortgage, and retire at a half decent age. I see American firms offering 50-100% more pay for the same or less demanding roles.