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I think this is unfortunate because it cheapens American democracy even further in the eyes of adversaries who want nothing more than to mock us on the world st

I think this is unfortunate because it cheapens American democracy even further in the eyes of adversaries who want nothing more than to mock us on the world stage. Whatever your view of the balance between the need to enforce laws vs. keeping national politics out of law enforcement: From a foreign policy point of view, it's a catastrophe. There are three classes of countries, as I see it, that indict or jail leaders out-of-power in the opposition. (1) dictatorships like Myanmar (2) quasi-dictatorships acting under a veil of democracy, like Brazil (3) places on the brink of civil rupture, like Israel. To say that this was intended by the Constitution of a breakaway American Republic is mad, because no sane English colonist would have chosen to renounce the crown if they'd known an idiot like Donald J Trump would be President 200 years later. Of course power should be held to account! As many people here have said, Presidents that committed war crimes would be a better target for prosecution. Or Trump's own crimes in office would be. This prosecution under these auspices and for these reasons places us (Americans) squarely in the realm of third world semi-democracies. I don't know if anyone has brought this up, but I hope Joe Biden will be wise enough to immediately issue Trump a pardon and bring this to a close. If Trump is indicted again for something serious, like insurrection, that would be a different matter. It's not possible to divide politics from law in a case where the defendant has a rabid political following and was the President of the country (as insane as that seems). Biden needs to pardon him right away.

aww_dang 4y ago
>...no sane English colonist would have chosen to renounce the crown... Consider that while the rate of economic productivity was much lower during the colonial era, the average rate of tax was between 1% and 1.5%. I have seen figures quoted as high as 3%. For this, a revolution was mounted. The indignation of being taxed by parliament (not the crown) without a chance to vote compelled colonists to take up arms. Contrast this to today's general apathy towards the political process, low voter turnout, higher rates of taxation and unending regulation of citizens' lives. https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/colonial-life-today/early-american-economics-facts/#:~:text=The%20average%20tax%20rate%20in%20colonial%20America%20was%20between%201%20and%201.5%25 https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/colonial-life-... South Korea also has a history of jailing leaders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Geun-hye#Arrest,_detention,_pardon_and_post-presidency_(2017%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Geun-hye#Arrest,_detentio... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Myung-bak#Controversies_and_issues:~:text=.%5B142%5D-,Detention,-%5Bedit%5D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Myung-bak#Controversies_an...
nasablasted 4y ago
You are simply uninformed. Many democracies have held formers leaders accountable for crimes. France, Italy, South Korea, Japan, etc. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/31/world/trump-world-leaders-indicted.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/31/world/trump-world-leaders...
TheHappyOddish 4y ago
> I think this is unfortunate because it cheapens American democracy even further in the eyes of adversaries who want nothing more than to mock us on the world stage. Sorry to inform you, but most of us haven't taken American "democracy" seriously since at least the 90s.
robbiep 4y ago
I’m not sure if you’ve spoken to many people from other countries in the last 10 years, but america is absolutely viewed as a third world country (masquerading as a first world country) by much of the rest of the developed world
d23 4y ago
> I don't know if anyone has brought this up, but I hope Joe Biden will be wise enough to immediately issue Trump a pardon and bring this to a close. [...] Biden needs to pardon him right away. Good stuff. You should lead with this next time for the reader's sake.

aww_dang 4y ago

>...no sane English colonist would have chosen to renounce the crown... Consider that while the rate of economic productivity was much lower during the colonial era, the average rate of tax was between 1% and 1.5%. I have seen figures quoted as high as 3%. For this, a revolution was mounted. The indignation of being taxed by parliament (not the crown) without a chance to vote compelled colonists to take up arms. Contrast this to today's general apathy towards the political process, low voter turnout, higher rates of taxation and unending regulation of citizens' lives. https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/colonial-life-today/early-american-economics-facts/#:~:text=The%20average%20tax%20rate%20in%20colonial%20America%20was%20between%201%20and%201.5%25 https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/colonial-life-... South Korea also has a history of jailing leaders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Geun-hye#Arrest,_detention,_pardon_and_post-presidency_(2017%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Geun-hye#Arrest,_detentio... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Myung-bak#Controversies_and_issues:~:text=.%5B142%5D-,Detention,-%5Bedit%5D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Myung-bak#Controversies_an...

nasablasted 4y ago

You are simply uninformed. Many democracies have held formers leaders accountable for crimes. France, Italy, South Korea, Japan, etc. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/31/world/trump-world-leaders-indicted.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/31/world/trump-world-leaders...

TheHappyOddish 4y ago

> I think this is unfortunate because it cheapens American democracy even further in the eyes of adversaries who want nothing more than to mock us on the world stage. Sorry to inform you, but most of us haven't taken American "democracy" seriously since at least the 90s.

robbiep 4y ago

I’m not sure if you’ve spoken to many people from other countries in the last 10 years, but america is absolutely viewed as a third world country (masquerading as a first world country) by much of the rest of the developed world

d23 4y ago

> I don't know if anyone has brought this up, but I hope Joe Biden will be wise enough to immediately issue Trump a pardon and bring this to a close. [...] Biden needs to pardon him right away. Good stuff. You should lead with this next time for the reader's sake.