5 ms·

I was studying something similar in my MSc about the neurobiology of language. It's well known that reading circuits in the brain make predictions about which w

I was studying something similar in my MSc about the neurobiology of language. It's well known that reading circuits in the brain make predictions about which words come next - a sentence like "The jam on the motorway made traffic slow" doesn't elicit much activity, whereas "The jam on the motorway was sticky" does, because "motorway" makes it much more likely that "jam" was about slow traffic rather than the condiment. (There are perhaps some interesting parallels to LLMs there...) But we were looking in the visual cortex, way back before the brain is even perceiving words, and we were finding pre-activation of circuits even there depending on whether people were presented with real words (e.g. sheep) or non-words (e.g. brast). I think there's a lot to be said for conceptualising the brain as a statistical machine - it makes a lot of sense in evolutionary terms. There's a great video introduction to that idea with Karl Friston from UCL here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIu_dJGyIQI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIu_dJGyIQI

atorodius 4y ago
I was recently wondering if this changed with age: when talking with older ppl, I sometimes think they prefer hearing what they want to hear - or maybe rather, what they predict I would say? And it can be challenging to get theough to them with novel concepts.
- frereubu 4y ago
  If the concept of the Bayesian brain - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_approaches_to_brain_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_approaches_to_brain_f... - is roughly right, it's plausible that as you get older you might build up a pretty unassailable statistical model of the world which would need very significant evidence to the contrary to change in a short timeframe. But I think there are probably other, more human, effects dominating like the one you suggest - only listening to evidence that backs up your existing points of view, and that happens from a pretty young age! That would actually be against the idea of the Bayesian brain, which should accept new evidence and update the statistical model appropriately. Much as I find the general approach of the Bayesian brain useful, in many domains humans aren't really particualarly optimal in statistical terms...
  - serverholic 4y ago
    I don't think that's necessarily proof against the Bayesian brain. It seems reasonable that the brain is also using its statistical models to assess the relevance of new evidence. So it's not just "new evidence, I need to update" but more like "new evidence, how likely is this true? I'll update according to the magnitude of the likelihood."
    - angry_octet 4y ago
      Anecdotally, when we get older our ability to assess new evidence weakens, or the weights get rusted into place. Being friends with an immortal vampire would be a chore. "Blood tasted so much better in Sumeria", "There's nothing wrong with clay tablets for a diary, it never crashes or needs an update."
justinram11 4y ago
I've also noticed this while learning Chinese -- I think quite a bit of the initial difficulty with learning a second language is just training your brain what to expect next. Going into a 711 to get a coffee in Taiwan you know approximately what questions they are going to ask: size, hot/cold, do you want a bag (to hang on your scooter), and do you want a receipt. Similar with the supermarket, a restaurant, when getting train tickets, etc. You're just building up what questions to expect next for the scenario -- if the conversation deviates from that (even with words or questions you might know) your brain has a hard time initially adapting to that.
- tristor 4y ago
  > if the conversation deviates from that (even with words or questions you might know) your brain has a hard time initially adapting to that. This even happens in your native language. I'm sure all of us have said something like "Good, and you?" in response to an expected "How's it going?" or similar greeting, but the other person started with something different and it became a non-sequitur. I'd never given it much thought, but I wonder if part of the feeling of social awkwardness here is contributed by the pattern mismatch, rather than the outcomes?
  - angry_octet 4y ago
    The incredible awkwardness of expressing the wrong token in the exchange. Like after having paid someone and they say "thankyou" and you say "you're welcome" automatically, but it's wrong to say that. A friend once answered the phone with "Hi, I'd like to speak to John in sales please" and even though (or because) I recognised his voice I was paralyzed for a moment. "But I rang you". I almost had to lie down.
    - kayge 4y ago
      "Here's your popcorn, enjoy the movie." "Thanks, you too!" .... <dammit!>

atorodius 4y ago

I was recently wondering if this changed with age: when talking with older ppl, I sometimes think they prefer hearing what they want to hear - or maybe rather, what they predict I would say? And it can be challenging to get theough to them with novel concepts.

frereubu 4y ago
If the concept of the Bayesian brain - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_approaches_to_brain_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_approaches_to_brain_f... - is roughly right, it's plausible that as you get older you might build up a pretty unassailable statistical model of the world which would need very significant evidence to the contrary to change in a short timeframe. But I think there are probably other, more human, effects dominating like the one you suggest - only listening to evidence that backs up your existing points of view, and that happens from a pretty young age! That would actually be against the idea of the Bayesian brain, which should accept new evidence and update the statistical model appropriately. Much as I find the general approach of the Bayesian brain useful, in many domains humans aren't really particualarly optimal in statistical terms...
- serverholic 4y ago
  I don't think that's necessarily proof against the Bayesian brain. It seems reasonable that the brain is also using its statistical models to assess the relevance of new evidence. So it's not just "new evidence, I need to update" but more like "new evidence, how likely is this true? I'll update according to the magnitude of the likelihood."
  - angry_octet 4y ago
    Anecdotally, when we get older our ability to assess new evidence weakens, or the weights get rusted into place. Being friends with an immortal vampire would be a chore. "Blood tasted so much better in Sumeria", "There's nothing wrong with clay tablets for a diary, it never crashes or needs an update."

justinram11 4y ago

I've also noticed this while learning Chinese -- I think quite a bit of the initial difficulty with learning a second language is just training your brain what to expect next. Going into a 711 to get a coffee in Taiwan you know approximately what questions they are going to ask: size, hot/cold, do you want a bag (to hang on your scooter), and do you want a receipt. Similar with the supermarket, a restaurant, when getting train tickets, etc. You're just building up what questions to expect next for the scenario -- if the conversation deviates from that (even with words or questions you might know) your brain has a hard time initially adapting to that.

tristor 4y ago
> if the conversation deviates from that (even with words or questions you might know) your brain has a hard time initially adapting to that. This even happens in your native language. I'm sure all of us have said something like "Good, and you?" in response to an expected "How's it going?" or similar greeting, but the other person started with something different and it became a non-sequitur. I'd never given it much thought, but I wonder if part of the feeling of social awkwardness here is contributed by the pattern mismatch, rather than the outcomes?
- angry_octet 4y ago
  The incredible awkwardness of expressing the wrong token in the exchange. Like after having paid someone and they say "thankyou" and you say "you're welcome" automatically, but it's wrong to say that. A friend once answered the phone with "Hi, I'd like to speak to John in sales please" and even though (or because) I recognised his voice I was paralyzed for a moment. "But I rang you". I almost had to lie down.
  - kayge 4y ago
    "Here's your popcorn, enjoy the movie." "Thanks, you too!" .... <dammit!>