5 ms·

>It sounds like they have to prove two separate crimes, and connect them with intention. Intent of course is always hard to prove in court. Michael Cohen pled

>It sounds like they have to prove two separate crimes, and connect them with intention. Intent of course is always hard to prove in court. Michael Cohen pled guilty and was sentenced to three years for the campaign finance law, and he's been very vocal about Trump's knowledge and involvement. So proving intent doesn't seem impossible. And, by definition, falsifying business records comes with a record of false information.

guelo 4y ago
I've seen arguments in the right-ophere that Cohen improperly plead guilty to a non-crime. Which seems like a weird thing for a high-level well-connected lawyer to do.
- TeeMassive 4y ago
  Cohen was not crime lawyer. And any high-level lawyer will tell you that even them will not represent themselves in a criminal investigation nor are they immune from make false confessions under the pressure of the federal government.
- roenxi 4y ago
  There was a fairly effective push to dismantle groups linked to Trump's electoral success [0]. They had a similar air of bullshit charges that only became an issue because prosecutors wanted to achieve political ends. It is weird, but it is likely he is being threatened. If they can get Trump arrested for this, they can certainly put Cohen in jeopardy. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/08/21/us/mueller-trump-charges.html?mtrref=duckduckgo.com&gwh=8FFFF3C458157262674CFD8DADD4245F&gwt=pay&assetType=PAYWALL https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/08/21/us/mueller-tr... EDIT Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Bannon#2022_New_York_state_indictment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Bannon#2022_New_York_sta... is probably going to fall into the same basket
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Worth mentioning that Stormy Daniels claims that she and her child were threatened over this issue. > 'Leave Trump alone. Forget the story.' And then he leaned around and looked at my daughter and said, 'That's a beautiful little girl. It'd be a shame if something happened to her mom.' https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-alleged-affair-cbs-60-minutes-threatened-car-parking-lot-daughter-a8273586.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stormy-dan...
    - saiya-jin 4y ago
      that alone is pretty serious stuff, the hard part is proving it actually happened (if I was dealing with such things I would always record every conversation on some tiny recorder, not phone, but thats me)
      - staunton 4y ago
        > if I was dealing with such things I would always record every conversation on some tiny recorder that would also be illegal though, and could not be used in court as evidence? (Not a lawyer, not legal advice) On the other hand, nowadays it's pretty easy to fake voice recordings. I'm not sure if it can be done in a way that is hard to detect by experts.
        berniedurfee 4y ago
        IANAL, but I think recording the conversation surreptitiously is legal in NY, as long as one party knows they’re being recorded.
        wolrah 4y ago
        At the US Federal level the law is "one party consent", meaning that someone who is a party to a private conversation can record it without requiring the approval of the other part(y/ies). You can't record someone else's private conversation without approval, but you can record those you are a party to. Some states have stricter "two party consent" laws which require both/all parties to approve, which is why most national companies put automated warnings in their phone systems if they're recording any calls.
- treis 4y ago
  That wasn't the only crime he pled guilty to. Likely had to plea guilty to all crimes to get his deal.
TeeMassive 4y ago
Cohen and Stormy Danielle changed their stories. What they say is unreliable. https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-stormy-daniels-admit-fabricating-donald-trump-affair-1789595 https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-stormy-daniels-admit... https://nypost.com/2018/08/23/how-long-before-cohens-lawyer-changes-his-story-again/ https://nypost.com/2018/08/23/how-long-before-cohens-lawyer-...
- freen 4y ago
  Only thing that matters: what is said under oath. The rest is marketing/BS.
  - TeeMassive 4y ago
    > Only thing that matters: what is said under oath You mean that what a witness has said outside of court can't be presented as evidence?
    - prepend 4y ago
      I don’t think it can. You’d need the witness to testify or sign an affidavit and submit it as evidence. But there’s a lot of particulars about evidence so I think depends on how they said it.
      - TeeMassive 4y ago
        Have you ever watched a criminal trial? Some of them are streamed online now. Seriously go watch them, you often get career lawyers commenting on them too, for free. What someone said publicly can definitely be used and has been used criminal trials.

guelo 4y ago

I've seen arguments in the right-ophere that Cohen improperly plead guilty to a non-crime. Which seems like a weird thing for a high-level well-connected lawyer to do.

TeeMassive 4y ago
Cohen was not crime lawyer. And any high-level lawyer will tell you that even them will not represent themselves in a criminal investigation nor are they immune from make false confessions under the pressure of the federal government.
roenxi 4y ago
There was a fairly effective push to dismantle groups linked to Trump's electoral success [0]. They had a similar air of bullshit charges that only became an issue because prosecutors wanted to achieve political ends. It is weird, but it is likely he is being threatened. If they can get Trump arrested for this, they can certainly put Cohen in jeopardy. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/08/21/us/mueller-trump-charges.html?mtrref=duckduckgo.com&gwh=8FFFF3C458157262674CFD8DADD4245F&gwt=pay&assetType=PAYWALL https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/08/21/us/mueller-tr... EDIT Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Bannon#2022_New_York_state_indictment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Bannon#2022_New_York_sta... is probably going to fall into the same basket
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Worth mentioning that Stormy Daniels claims that she and her child were threatened over this issue. > 'Leave Trump alone. Forget the story.' And then he leaned around and looked at my daughter and said, 'That's a beautiful little girl. It'd be a shame if something happened to her mom.' https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stormy-daniels-donald-trump-alleged-affair-cbs-60-minutes-threatened-car-parking-lot-daughter-a8273586.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stormy-dan...
  - saiya-jin 4y ago
    that alone is pretty serious stuff, the hard part is proving it actually happened (if I was dealing with such things I would always record every conversation on some tiny recorder, not phone, but thats me)
    - staunton 4y ago
      > if I was dealing with such things I would always record every conversation on some tiny recorder that would also be illegal though, and could not be used in court as evidence? (Not a lawyer, not legal advice) On the other hand, nowadays it's pretty easy to fake voice recordings. I'm not sure if it can be done in a way that is hard to detect by experts.
      - berniedurfee 4y ago
        IANAL, but I think recording the conversation surreptitiously is legal in NY, as long as one party knows they’re being recorded.
      - wolrah 4y ago
        At the US Federal level the law is "one party consent", meaning that someone who is a party to a private conversation can record it without requiring the approval of the other part(y/ies). You can't record someone else's private conversation without approval, but you can record those you are a party to. Some states have stricter "two party consent" laws which require both/all parties to approve, which is why most national companies put automated warnings in their phone systems if they're recording any calls.
treis 4y ago
That wasn't the only crime he pled guilty to. Likely had to plea guilty to all crimes to get his deal.

TeeMassive 4y ago

Cohen and Stormy Danielle changed their stories. What they say is unreliable. https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-stormy-daniels-admit-fabricating-donald-trump-affair-1789595 https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-stormy-daniels-admit... https://nypost.com/2018/08/23/how-long-before-cohens-lawyer-changes-his-story-again/ https://nypost.com/2018/08/23/how-long-before-cohens-lawyer-...

freen 4y ago
Only thing that matters: what is said under oath. The rest is marketing/BS.
- TeeMassive 4y ago
  > Only thing that matters: what is said under oath You mean that what a witness has said outside of court can't be presented as evidence?
  - prepend 4y ago
    I don’t think it can. You’d need the witness to testify or sign an affidavit and submit it as evidence. But there’s a lot of particulars about evidence so I think depends on how they said it.
    - TeeMassive 4y ago
      Have you ever watched a criminal trial? Some of them are streamed online now. Seriously go watch them, you often get career lawyers commenting on them too, for free. What someone said publicly can definitely be used and has been used criminal trials.