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This keeps coming up, but it keeps seeming hogwash & backwards. There are dozens & dozens of really really good html/svg animation products that give Flash lik

This keeps coming up, but it keeps seeming hogwash & backwards. There are dozens & dozens of really really good html/svg animation products that give Flash like capabilities. But there's vastly less interest in this stuff today. Fun/simple/quirky Flash-like stuff isn't nearly as unique or novel, now that we have much more upscale products & experiences. It was a magical time & Flash helped, but we've changed & these rose-colored glasses views on Flash never point out all the myriad of ways it was awful, choppy, poorly integrated, quirky to work with, & otherwise difficult. If you want higher there are hundreds of web-dev targeting game dev systems which can be put to use. Many of these actually do have popularity. In spite of their being good Flash-ish animation toolkits, it doesn't feel like there's a ton of demand or clear winners. It's hard to imagine what we'd want it for today.

lmm 4y ago
I think the demand is there, but you underestimate how much difference the tiny inconveniences make. Like, maybe there's stuff out there that can do the same thing, but the people who are just starting out don't know where it is (hell, I'm an experienced programmer and I don't know where it is) or what to pick up. A lot of those great Flash works were made by literal schoolkids, or more often by young adults who'd got their start as schoolkids and gradually refined their craft, because you could just pick up Flash and start doing things, and kids did. From what I hear maybe Roblox is filling the same niche now, but that's only happened in the last few years, and for all that Flash was notionally proprietary and poorly-integrated with the open web, having it right there in your browser was still a win.
EamonnMR 4y ago
The loss of the mouse and keyboard as primary input devices is an underrated part of why everything feels worse now compared to the flash era. Web is a very different target now than it was. Also, the flash game ecosystem was intertwined with the animation ecosystem and the advent of streaming full motion video devalued animation skills. Anyway nowdays we have Godot and Unity which are both very nice. But there were definitely lost years where amateur gamedev was less accessable.
- grishka 4y ago
  > The loss of the mouse and keyboard as primary input devices is an underrated part of why everything feels worse now compared to the flash era. It's okay to say "please visit this from your computer" when someone opens something that requires a keyboard from a phone. > Anyway nowdays we have Godot and Unity which are both very nice. But there were definitely lost years where amateur gamedev was less accessable. The barrier to entry is considerably higher with these things. They require programming from the beginning. The coolest part about Flash was that you could get started without writing a single line of code. Then you could build up your understanding of the thing iteratively. You could build a simple quest-type game with just one line of code that you copy-pasted from somewhere, `goToAndStop(frameNumber)`. And then you go from there — variables, flow control, all that. Flash got a sizable number of people interested in programming. This ease of use is extremely important and it's still unmatched by any purported modern replacements.
  - yathaid 4y ago
    >> It's okay to say "please visit this from your computer" when someone opens something that requires a keyboard from a phone. Unless you have a captive audience, like forced to use enterprise users, this is not a winning strategy for any internet based product. Also, the assumption that everyone will have devices in two form factors is, and I am being charitable here, naive.
thrashh 4y ago
I wouldn’t touch any of those game systems with 10-ft pole. Their user bases are too small to be worth using. They also don’t at all compare to the Flash IDE. Flash was great because it was popular and supported with the weight of a big company that loved its own child. Their love translated to great tooling. Whereas the web is “community-owned” and community/committee-designed things rarely get super cool and fleshed out things like well-integrated for-everyone tooling. Instead, you mostly get self-serving projects that serve the creator’s own need primarily. Usually half-baked. And it’s not interoperable with anything else.
illiarian 4y ago
> There are dozens & dozens of really really good html/svg animation products that give Flash like capabilities. And those are? > now that we have much more upscale products & experiences. And those are?!!
JoeyJoJoJr 4y ago
I was a Flash developer and have searched everywhere for a comparable tool. None exists. Recently I have worked on interfaces for touch screen kiosks, and digital signage. Flash was excellent for these kinds of projects and 10 years later nothing compares.
stuaxo 4y ago
The authoring tool was a big part of why so much flash stuff got made.

lmm 4y ago

I think the demand is there, but you underestimate how much difference the tiny inconveniences make. Like, maybe there's stuff out there that can do the same thing, but the people who are just starting out don't know where it is (hell, I'm an experienced programmer and I don't know where it is) or what to pick up. A lot of those great Flash works were made by literal schoolkids, or more often by young adults who'd got their start as schoolkids and gradually refined their craft, because you could just pick up Flash and start doing things, and kids did. From what I hear maybe Roblox is filling the same niche now, but that's only happened in the last few years, and for all that Flash was notionally proprietary and poorly-integrated with the open web, having it right there in your browser was still a win.

EamonnMR 4y ago

The loss of the mouse and keyboard as primary input devices is an underrated part of why everything feels worse now compared to the flash era. Web is a very different target now than it was. Also, the flash game ecosystem was intertwined with the animation ecosystem and the advent of streaming full motion video devalued animation skills. Anyway nowdays we have Godot and Unity which are both very nice. But there were definitely lost years where amateur gamedev was less accessable.

grishka 4y ago
> The loss of the mouse and keyboard as primary input devices is an underrated part of why everything feels worse now compared to the flash era. It's okay to say "please visit this from your computer" when someone opens something that requires a keyboard from a phone. > Anyway nowdays we have Godot and Unity which are both very nice. But there were definitely lost years where amateur gamedev was less accessable. The barrier to entry is considerably higher with these things. They require programming from the beginning. The coolest part about Flash was that you could get started without writing a single line of code. Then you could build up your understanding of the thing iteratively. You could build a simple quest-type game with just one line of code that you copy-pasted from somewhere, `goToAndStop(frameNumber)`. And then you go from there — variables, flow control, all that. Flash got a sizable number of people interested in programming. This ease of use is extremely important and it's still unmatched by any purported modern replacements.
- yathaid 4y ago
  >> It's okay to say "please visit this from your computer" when someone opens something that requires a keyboard from a phone. Unless you have a captive audience, like forced to use enterprise users, this is not a winning strategy for any internet based product. Also, the assumption that everyone will have devices in two form factors is, and I am being charitable here, naive.

thrashh 4y ago

I wouldn’t touch any of those game systems with 10-ft pole. Their user bases are too small to be worth using. They also don’t at all compare to the Flash IDE. Flash was great because it was popular and supported with the weight of a big company that loved its own child. Their love translated to great tooling. Whereas the web is “community-owned” and community/committee-designed things rarely get super cool and fleshed out things like well-integrated for-everyone tooling. Instead, you mostly get self-serving projects that serve the creator’s own need primarily. Usually half-baked. And it’s not interoperable with anything else.

illiarian 4y ago

> There are dozens & dozens of really really good html/svg animation products that give Flash like capabilities. And those are? > now that we have much more upscale products & experiences. And those are?!!

JoeyJoJoJr 4y ago

I was a Flash developer and have searched everywhere for a comparable tool. None exists. Recently I have worked on interfaces for touch screen kiosks, and digital signage. Flash was excellent for these kinds of projects and 10 years later nothing compares.

stuaxo 4y ago

The authoring tool was a big part of why so much flash stuff got made.