5 ms·

Trump indicted by N.Y. grand jury, first ex-president charged with crime

27 points by Sai_ 4y ago

enraged_camel 4y ago
This is a historic event, as the headline notes. I hope this submission and those like it don't get flagged.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
metadat 4y ago
https://archive.today/nEM3 https://archive.today/nEM3 --- Edit: Also see related submission currently on front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35379099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35379099 (20 comments) Warning: Low Quality Discussion
HaZeust 4y ago
The precedent worries me. While it's important to hold leaders accountable for any wrongdoing - in or out of office, we must ensure that the legal system doesn't become a tool for political retribution. This could mean going for former US Presidents on behalf of crimes unrelated to their commitments in office - and that might become a game of "digging through the trash" of one's political opponents in order to stick a criminal charge. Folks can assert that this charge is independent of his political career, but it will have vast implications and impact in that sector, and I'm worried what it'll mean for other Presidents and high-profile political individuals moving forward.
- enraged_camel 4y ago
  IMO the precedent of letting powerful people get away with crimes is far, far worse for democracy and the rule of law.
  - HaZeust 4y ago
    Your point doesn't go amiss; but America has done pretty well letting powerful people get away with crimes, and fared fairly well despite it. Ford and Nixon, Hayes and Tilden, Jefferson Davis (charged, never indicted), Hoover, Kissinger, the list goes on. We've healed as a nation pretty well letting powerful people get away with crimes - some bigger than Trump's wildest dreams, and here we are today. A case can be made that shutting these people down during their era and their 15 minutes of fame could have meant that the list wouldn't have been as long. I'm not sure. Either way, I recognize that this is an uncharted territory - and I'm weary of where it can lead in our discourse and political approach to our domestic political opponents in our already-fragile democratic system.
    - krapp 4y ago
      If it is existentially impossible to hold the rich and powerful to account for any crime, not even basic corruption like paying hush money to a prostitute, then we don't have a democracy in any form to begin with, but an oligarchy. Which by many accounts we do, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it. The fact that Trump isn't still president demonstrates that some not entirely vestigial aspects of an actual functioning republic remain alive, riddled with squamous cancer though it is.
    - cmurf 4y ago
      Jefferson Davis (and Robert E. Lee) stand out here because, as a nation we didn't actually heal. The rot got worse. The Lost Cause Myth is taught to this day in schools across the U.S. The lie it tells, that the war was about states rights, not slavery. Except what isn't taught include the secession documents of those states expressly saying their secession was to preserve slavery; that the constitution of the Confederate States of America prohibits states from making slavery illegal, quite to the contrary of states' rights. Not taught in these schools is Alexander Stephens' Cornerstone Speech. Robert E. Lee's 15 minutes of fame continues for 158 years and counting. I think it's reasonable to conclude Jim Crow era laws, and lynchings in America were the direct result of not prosecuting people at the top, middle or bottom of the violence for slavery food chain. Many ordinary citizens partook in those crimes. They brought their children to watch. Governors encouraged citizens to attend. The extent of the trauma goes way beyond just one trial that didn't happen.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  Can you more clearly articulate the precedent you are worried about? Are you concerned that the allegations in the indictment are not even vaguely true or something like that? We don't yet know what the charges are, but it is likely enough that they are in fact directly related to things that occurred during a political campaign.
BMc2020 4y ago
Will he be tried as an adult?

27 points by Sai_ 4y ago

enraged_camel 4y ago

This is a historic event, as the headline notes. I hope this submission and those like it don't get flagged.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

metadat 4y ago

https://archive.today/nEM3 https://archive.today/nEM3 --- Edit: Also see related submission currently on front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35379099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35379099 (20 comments) Warning: Low Quality Discussion

HaZeust 4y ago

The precedent worries me. While it's important to hold leaders accountable for any wrongdoing - in or out of office, we must ensure that the legal system doesn't become a tool for political retribution. This could mean going for former US Presidents on behalf of crimes unrelated to their commitments in office - and that might become a game of "digging through the trash" of one's political opponents in order to stick a criminal charge. Folks can assert that this charge is independent of his political career, but it will have vast implications and impact in that sector, and I'm worried what it'll mean for other Presidents and high-profile political individuals moving forward.

enraged_camel 4y ago
IMO the precedent of letting powerful people get away with crimes is far, far worse for democracy and the rule of law.
- HaZeust 4y ago
  Your point doesn't go amiss; but America has done pretty well letting powerful people get away with crimes, and fared fairly well despite it. Ford and Nixon, Hayes and Tilden, Jefferson Davis (charged, never indicted), Hoover, Kissinger, the list goes on. We've healed as a nation pretty well letting powerful people get away with crimes - some bigger than Trump's wildest dreams, and here we are today. A case can be made that shutting these people down during their era and their 15 minutes of fame could have meant that the list wouldn't have been as long. I'm not sure. Either way, I recognize that this is an uncharted territory - and I'm weary of where it can lead in our discourse and political approach to our domestic political opponents in our already-fragile democratic system.
  - krapp 4y ago
    If it is existentially impossible to hold the rich and powerful to account for any crime, not even basic corruption like paying hush money to a prostitute, then we don't have a democracy in any form to begin with, but an oligarchy. Which by many accounts we do, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it. The fact that Trump isn't still president demonstrates that some not entirely vestigial aspects of an actual functioning republic remain alive, riddled with squamous cancer though it is.
  - cmurf 4y ago
    Jefferson Davis (and Robert E. Lee) stand out here because, as a nation we didn't actually heal. The rot got worse. The Lost Cause Myth is taught to this day in schools across the U.S. The lie it tells, that the war was about states rights, not slavery. Except what isn't taught include the secession documents of those states expressly saying their secession was to preserve slavery; that the constitution of the Confederate States of America prohibits states from making slavery illegal, quite to the contrary of states' rights. Not taught in these schools is Alexander Stephens' Cornerstone Speech. Robert E. Lee's 15 minutes of fame continues for 158 years and counting. I think it's reasonable to conclude Jim Crow era laws, and lynchings in America were the direct result of not prosecuting people at the top, middle or bottom of the violence for slavery food chain. Many ordinary citizens partook in those crimes. They brought their children to watch. Governors encouraged citizens to attend. The extent of the trauma goes way beyond just one trial that didn't happen.
maxerickson 4y ago
Can you more clearly articulate the precedent you are worried about? Are you concerned that the allegations in the indictment are not even vaguely true or something like that? We don't yet know what the charges are, but it is likely enough that they are in fact directly related to things that occurred during a political campaign.

BMc2020 4y ago

Will he be tried as an adult?